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benjamen

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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/supreme-court-issue-obamacare-decision-135554880.html

Included in this junk:
"Medicaid will be expanded by 16 million low-income people"
Because we are not already in enough debt, lets pay for 16 million more!

"about 6 percent of the population will actually be required to buy health insurance or face a tax under the mandate"
Not to mention this is mostly younger workers already struggling to find jobs and pay off student loans!

"Insurers can also no longer turn away children with preexisting conditions, and sick uninsured people can buy coverage in high-risk pools set up by the government."

Having worked in the insurance industry in the past, the math simply does not work. This is going to make the insurance industry totally dependant on govermental hand outs... which we can not afford....

:paperbag:
:noevil:
:flushed:
 
The government now has precedent to tell you where to spend your money.

Next up... The I-phone mandate.
 
dereksatkinson said:
The government now has precedent to tell you where to spend your money.

Next up... The I-phone mandate.
Click to expand...

Using the same logic:

Since the government is funding your healthcare, they have a vested interest in your health. Since everyone eats food, the government can force you to buy certain things in the food market. Therefore, every American must eat one cup of spinach a week.

:noevil:
 
If you thought the economy was fucked, watch what happens now! We're talking half a trillion dollars a year that will be diverted from the real economy to pay for this ridiculous multi-thousand page boondoggle.

This will divert a very significant chunk of my paycheck each week to pay for, which means I will have to cut back elsewhere. Those who do not need much health care will be affected just as much. Of course, since I earn a decent wage, I will get to help pay for all the losers out there who chose not to finish school and sought out a life career as a McDonald's fry cook and expert joint roller.

This is the final nail in the coffin of our economy folks. Commerce will fall off by exactly the dollar cost of these forced payments for socialist medical services. I expect the quality of our already falling standard of care to rapidly decline as well. With thirty million people being instantaneously added to the rolls of those who will be covered, the infrastructure will break as they seek care for every single sniffle.

We are irretrievably fucked unless the Republicans can take a two thirds majority of the Senate and keep the house.
 
SCOTUS just pissed in my Wheaties.
 
ancona said:
If you thought the economy was fucked, watch what happens now! We're talking half a trillion dollars a year that will be diverted from the real economy to pay for this ridiculous multi-thousand page boondoggle.

This will divert a very significant chunk of my paycheck each week to pay for, which means I will have to cut back elsewhere. Those who do not need much health care will be affected just as much. Of course, since I earn a decent wage, I will get to help pay for all the losers out there who chose not to finish school and sought out a life career as a McDonald's fry cook and expert joint roller.

This is the final nail in the coffin of our economy folks. Commerce will fall off by exactly the dollar cost of these forced payments for socialist medical services. I expect the quality of our already falling standard of care to rapidly decline as well. With thirty million people being instantaneously added to the rolls of those who will be covered, the infrastructure will break as they seek care for every single sniffle.

We are irretrievably fucked unless the Republicans can take a two thirds majority of the Senate and keep the house.
Click to expand...

1) This is going to kill off a lot small businesses with more that 50 employees that were already hurting

2) This is going to make the unemployment problem worse as we begin to see layoffs due to this law

3) Since the states (correct me if im wrong) pay for most of Medicaid and most states are already completely broke, how do you think they are going to pay for all these new Medicaid covered people?

:doodoo:
 
Now I get to pay even more for people that are too damn lazy or too damn stupid to take care of themselves.

Too bad I am not rich enough to leave this shithole that has been getting deeper and deeper for the last hundred years.
 
Sounds like the same shit they used to get social security passed.

FDR to the public: "It's not a tax, it's insurance!"

SCOTUS: "You can't make people buy insurance."

FDR to SCOTUS: "It's not insurance, it's really just a tax."

SCOTUS: "Okay, you can do that."


A few important things to take away from this:

Using the argument that we need to elect Romney to get more "conservative" justices on the SCOTUS is not a valid argument since there is no telling how they will actually rule.

Using the argument that we need to elect Romey because he says he will grant waivers against Obamacare on his first day is also not valid. The only thing that Romney has ever done consistently is change his position to suit his audience, and he will never be as "conservative" sounding as he was during the primary; that was the best he'll ever be, and it wasn't very good. And you can bet that the guy who invented Obamacare and is a spineless shill will quickly wiggle and squirm his way to justifying Obamacare if he were to take office. The powerful influcences on the president will allow nothing else.

If you need some medical work done, do it asap. The return on being a doctor is already a far cry from what it once was - a prestigious and lucrative profession. Just the fact that doctors graduate with a mortgage worth of debt and no house is bad enough, then factor in tremedous malpractice insurance, insane hours, and now Obamacare. I personally know many doctors who say being a doctor just isn't worth it anymore, and they tell aspiring doctors that quite frankly. What this means is that the people who are capable of being good doctors will decide to do something else, leaving us with doctors that are fewer and of lower skill. Of course, with doctors being more scarce the prices for their services will neccessarily rise, even while quality declines. This is a stark reminder why being healthy is perhaps the most important step to becoming resilient.

mmerlinn, that little voice in the back of my head for a while has been saying "GO GO GO", but, like you, I have no place and little means to get there.
 
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...tion_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline

Interesting idea:
"Roberts' genius was in pushing this health care decision through without attaching it to the coattails of an ugly, narrow partisan victory. Obama wins on policy, this time. And Roberts rewrites Congress' power to regulate, opening the door for countless future challenges. In the long term, supporters of curtailing the federal government should be glad to have made that trade."

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_n...22-supreme-court-upholds-health-care-law?lite

Amusing:
"It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices.”
 
So these douchebags have decided that the constitution permits government to create commerce so that they can regulate it? Someone needs a loooong 'dirt nap' over this one.
 
One of the things that bothers me the most about this bill/law/mandate, is that it was made by a bunch of people that have little to no experience in healthcare and it was done in a matter of months. I am all for a change for the better but its like they said "Screw taking the time to learn it and who gives a shit if it is thought through or right, well wing it and run with it anyways."

I guess I am the stupid one for thinking that they would take a reasonable amount of time (2-3 years) to work through a problem and make a good long term solution. Go figure, it is the one thing they got done quick.
 
They won't hold this for long. They think people like me, who spend just about exactly zero on health care a year will quietly pay in and not go to the doctor, as before. Screw that, I'll be there for every sniffle and each time I skin a knee.

And so will the people I know that are like ancona's neighbors. They used to just die at about 50 (drink, drugs, stupidity) - but now, they'll be at the doctors all the time, and will now live long enough to collect SS and so on.

There won't be enough services available, and there won't be anywhere near enough new pay-in to cover it.

I feel like yeah, someone's going to be taking a dirt nap over this. Several.
 
Adding fifty million people to the rolls of the insured will guarantee extreme shortages everywhere and for everyone [except the wealthy].

This was the worst possible thing they could have passed. Doctors will leave the profession because payments will shrink to the point where it is no longer worth it to treat patients. These guys have enormous malpractice payments and need an army of admin people just to figure out the millions [literally] of billing codes, and to chase down their payments from Medicaid and Medicare. My orthopedist tells me he refused to treat anyone besides cash patients and those with insurance......period, because Medicare/Medicade pay schedules are a joke and the money is at best, 90 days out.
 
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69mach351 said:
One of the things that bothers me the most about this bill/law/mandate, is that it was made by a bunch of people that have little to no experience in healthcare and it was done in a matter of months. I am all for a change for the better but its like they said "Screw taking the time to learn it and who gives a shit if it is thought through or right, well wing it and run with it anyways."

I guess I am the stupid one for thinking that they would take a reasonable amount of time (2-3 years) to work through a problem and make a good long term solution. Go figure, it is the one thing they got done quick.
Click to expand...

and to add to it, these were the same guys worried about a college football playoff and steriods in baseball a few months earlier. Give me a break. I wish I could pick and choose what I want to half ass everyday.
 
ancona said:
My orthopedist tells me he refused to treat anyone besides cash patients and those with insurance......period, because Medicare/Medicade pay schedules are a joke and the money is at best, 90 days out.
Click to expand...
...not to worry, ancona. Expect a new bill, in few year's time, (when all these cracks inevitably show in the ugly truth reality), that will REQUIRE all doctors to accept medicare patients same way as cash-pay/insured ones, under the threat of losing medical license if not doing so. Just saying, but send me a beer when it happens - or a tip, how I can position myself today to benefit from it in the future :)

As history shows all around the planet, centrally planned economy can only last for so long, and crucially, ONLY in the repressionists countries, where individual liberties, do not exists. It is quite logical, that individual rights, are always a threat to a central plans. That is exactly why individual rights are being eroded in US, to the point of non-existence, in practice. More central planning = less individual liberties, by definition. If people were to decide by themselves, to go along with central planners willingly - well, there would be no need for the central plan, because people would be voting with their wallets anyway.

It is sad to see, how America is going the way of Soviet Union. Not that it actually means anything to the new generations.
 
The Inflation trader (one of the few smart guys over at Seeking Alpha) had this to say - and he "never" mentions politics:

"It’s an interesting and depressing ruling. Since there is no limit on the amount of money the government is permitted to levy in taxes, there would be no difference in principle if the Congress had made the “opt-out tax”, say, $100 million, completely bankrupting anyone who refused to comply. It strikes me as a plausible ruling (not that I am a Constitutional lawyer), though I’m not pleased with the result, and anyway it’s the law of the land. But the implication is that your ‘inalienable rights’ are not life, liberty, and property (aka ‘pursuit of happiness’), but life and one of liberty or property. You can give up your property to keep your liberty, or give up your liberty and keep your property. Thanks, Congress."

Link to the article:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/691871-where-can-i-buy-global-economic-health-insurance
 
ACA might be invalid as a tax bill that was was not passed in the House in accordance with Article I Section 7:



If ACA is a tax, its a direct tax that must be apportioned:

 
The govt does not get how broke people are.

July- I will have to decide on who I can pay. I have an emergency house repair and car repair- in addition to the $365 I borrowed from friends.

So I will be strategic in what I can and can not pay. Each month this will continue.

I might even have to sell the stack.
 
Bottom line - my sidekick, a big ol redneck type who's been helping me do the major improvements around the place - Mr Heavy Lifter - came to me in tears about this.
This is not his normal demeanor.

He and his wife and 3 kids live on about $1500/month based on honest work (about 2/3 of that is what I've been paying him to come around and help when he isn't needed on the family farm). He can't get a "real job" due to a felony in his past.

He cannot afford either the insurance or the "tax" penalty. His kids will start going hungry. He doesn't know what to do. He knows crime doesn't pay (at least, hasn't for him). I can't afford to pay him more, and he works so hard that frankly all the "heavy lifting" is nearly done for the year. No, they don't have bling and rents (cel phone/cable etc bills). They don't even have a computer or their own phone line.
They've cut to the bone long ago. Their dad's farm is at best breakeven and he can't feed/support the whole family in current conditions.
They've been getting their health care through the local barter clinic, which is shutting down due to new regs.

That's the impact, multiplied by thousands in this county alone - which only has 20-30 thousand souls in it to begin with.

It sure is going to create a lot of people with "nothing left to lose" who don't fear "direct action" even if it ends in their death - because they can't live anyway.

Those pricks in DC who don't get out much are going to get one hell of a wake-up call about how it really is out in the country they never bother to visit, just extract money from for their cronies. How is the secret service going to protect these dicks and track people who don't even have a phone to tap? And who now have nothing to lose, and no fear of death? And who do in fact know how to stalk and shoot.
 
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...not to mention, that as usual, the law of unintended consequences dictates one thing: even those, who physically CAN afford and will pay that new tax slash insurance - they will have precisely that much money taken out of their wallet, preventing them from spending it/save in other areas of economy, other than overpaid/overbloated healthcare. Well done, central planners.

I'd suggest anyone in the US to get into healthcare business, one of the few where growth is robust and foreseen to grow, in years to come.
 
DCF - from what I'm hearing/reading, the IRS cannot enforce collection of the Tax/mandate penalty. If you don't pay it, there doesn't appear to be any real consequence (at the moment).
 
Lets start some nullification:
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/co...ling-will-provoke-states-to-nullify-obamacare

"This government takeover of health care remains as destructive, unsustainable, and unconstitutional as it was the day it was passed, unread, by a since-fired congressional majority. Now as then, our first step toward real health care reform and economic renewal remains Obamacare’s full repeal, down to the last letter and punctuation mark.

I urge every governor to stop implementing the health care exchanges that would help implement the harmful effects of this misguided law. Americans have loudly rejected this federal takeover of health care, and governors should join with the people and reject its implementation."
 
Unintending consequences:
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/he...ling-on-obamacare-to-boost-insurance-premiums

"a study by the Urban Institute that shows premiums for single policy holders, aged 18 to 34, will boost by $1,400, from $3,600 to $5,000 a year."

"America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), the industry’s chief lobbying group, issued a statement following the ruling, stressing the importance of “secure, affordable coverage choices,” but saying that “major provisions, such as the premium tax, will have unintended consequences of raising costs and disrupting coverage unless they are addressed.”

"annual premiums for employer-sponsored family health coverage spiked to more than $15,000 last year, up a sizable nine percent from the previous year."

"many employers are transitioning their workers to less comprehensive plans with higher out-of-pocket costs (higher co-pays, deductibles, and co-insurance) to curb rising premiums. As a result, 31 percent of insured employees in 2011 had at least a $1,000 deductible, up from 27 percent in 2010 — which many critics are attributing to the president’s healthcare overhaul."

:noevil:
 
Effects on Georiga:
http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-faces-tough-call-1467773.html

"The state estimated last week that it would have to pay an additional $4.5 billion over 10 years if the Medicaid expansion goes through."

“We can’t afford the patients we have on Medicaid already,” said state Sen. Renee Unterman, R-Buford, who heads the senate’s Health and Human Services Committee. Georgia is facing a $300 million Medicaid shortfall this fiscal year. “There’s no way we can accept more patients.”

“Some hospitals are hanging by a financial thread,” he said. “It could send them over the cliff.”

"Insured Georgians pay an estimated $1,000 extra on their premiums each year to cover the uninsured, said state Rep. Pat Gardner, D-Atlanta. who focuses on health care issues."

:flushed:
 
I always thought a high deductible was a good thing. For one thing, you are going to have to pay your routine medical costs one way or another anyway - insurance companies make money - why cut them into the stream on the little stuff?
(which might be a large fraction of the total money, since there's more little stuff than big stuff)

Further, when people see their bills - and it's not like magic - they complain about the excess defensive medicine that makes the costs so high, and request fewer bullshit procedures on top. Pushback on waste is only going to come from private folks - the insurance companies don't care - they're working on a cost plus basis, so if costs go up, so do profits.

Back in the day, IEEE members could buy $10k deductible insurance for pennies, it was a good deal. You pay for the sniffles, we take care of the "fat tail" events like cancer etc.
 
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/he...chicago-under-rahmcare-do-as-we-say-or-pay-up

"The program, called Chicago Lives Healthy, is technically voluntary; but those refusing to participate in it will be penalized $50 a month per covered adult. In other words, it’s only voluntary if a couple wants to forego $1,200 a year."

"Even if the program does result in healthier city employees and lower costs to taxpayers, it still sets a dangerous precedent for allowing government to control individuals’ behaviors (though it’s hard to feel sorry for government employees being subjected to it since they do the same thing to the people they supposedly serve). That trademarked Well-Being Assessment — featuring questions on mental health, stress, and “barriers to change” — and the “wellness activities” that will be prescribed on the basis of it are creepy."

I for one am glad to get my "free" healthcare and I am sure this will never get extended to a national level.
:noevil:
 
Let me speak from the regard of welfare to the poor.

Austerity to the poor is no acceptable to me. When compared to hand outs to big corporations, subsidies, war contracts, in short welfare for the rich will not be cut.. and that chunk of change is much bigger then the chunk that goes to the needy. Lets take TARP- Seniors got $250, banks got more then $250- who is the leach?

If it were up to me I would appeal Obama care. Understand tho- our business model is to sell the most pills/etc at the highest possible price- our food supply aids this. The whole model is to KEEP people sick- thus it can never be fixed.

Everything they do there is a k street lobby.

For every $250 in hand outs to the needy- there is at least $2500 to some other entity as a hand out.
 
Suprise, Romney is a big fan of Obamacare style healthcare. He takes it a compliment that he is called the grandfather of Obamacare...
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/he...ment”-to-be-called-“grandfather-of-obamacare”

It is fun to watch what is going on in Massachusets since Romney started his earlier version:
'Moreover, this would not, as Romney suggested, “keep the cost of healthcare from going through the roof” or prevent the government from dictating “what kind of care you can receive.” RomneyCare has done the exact opposite for Massachusetts residents. Per capita health spending in the Bay State is now 27 percent higher than the national average, and insurance premiums are double the national average. Costs have gotten so far out of hand that the state recently imposed price controls on healthcare providers; and to enforce these price controls the legislature created an independent state agency — “a board that tells you what kind of care you can receive.”'

I wonder what will happen once the federal version goes into full swing?
:noevil:
 
Penn said:
Let me speak from the regard of welfare to the poor.

Austerity to the poor is no acceptable to me. When compared to hand outs to big corporations, subsidies, war contracts, in short welfare for the rich will not be cut.. and that chunk of change is much bigger then the chunk that goes to the needy. Lets take TARP- Seniors got $250, banks got more then $250- who is the leach?

If it were up to me I would appeal Obama care. Understand tho- our business model is to sell the most pills/etc at the highest possible price- our food supply aids this. The whole model is to KEEP people sick- thus it can never be fixed.

Everything they do there is a k street lobby.

For every $250 in hand outs to the needy- there is at least $2500 to some other entity as a hand out.
Click to expand...

Penn, its relative. In the house two doors down from me, there are ten people on food stamps. My wifes friend is their case worker. They get 4000 dollars a month; not one person weights less than 300 pounds. They get ssi because they are too fat to work. The house is a section 8 house, and they rent rooms out also, for extra income, in addition to selling their stamps (EBT card actually). So yeah, we can certainly cut benefits for the "poor". Agree that the corporate welfare is worse, though.
 
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