Patriotism -- Now regarded with a smirk

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Unca Walt

Immortal. So far...
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I was brought up in a military family. We stayed loyal to our Oath.

My country did not. Now well into my 80's, I am disillusioned.

The racist, bigoted Founding Fathers... for that's what they are now to the valueless, selfish, unnatural politicians... at least they did not live to see the most beautiful, idealistic, and noble concepts these men had put in place -- for the FIRST TIME IN ALL HUMAN HISTORY -- get raped into muddy filth.

Do it soon. I am old, but that doesn't mean you are out of range.
 
While today we marvel at the extraordinary accomplishment of our Founding Fathers, their own reaction to the US Constitution when it was presented to them for their signatures was considerably less enthusiastic. Benjamin Franklin, ever the optimist even at the age of 81, gave what was for him a remarkably restrained assessment in his final speech before the Constitutional Convention: "…when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views." He thought it impossible to expect a "perfect production" from such a gathering, but he believed that the Constitution they had just drafted, "with all its faults," was better than any alternative that was likely to emerge.

Nearly all of the delegates harbored objections, but persuaded by Franklin's logic, they put aside their misgivings and affixed their signatures to it. Their over-riding concern was the tendency in nearly all parts of the young country toward disorder and disintegration. Americans had used the doctrine of popular sovereignty--"democracy"--as the rationale for their successful rebellion against English authority in 1776. But they had not yet worked out fully the question that has plagued all nations aspiring to democratic government ever since: how to implement principles of popular majority rule while at the same time preserving stable governments that protect the rights and liberties of all citizens.
...
The American statesmen who succeeded those of the founding generation served their country with a self-conscious sense that the challenges of maintaining a democratic union were every bit as great after 1787 as they were before. Some aspects of their nation-building program--their continuing toleration of slavery and genocidal policies toward American Indians--are fit objects of national shame, not honor. But statesmen of succeeding generations--Lincoln foremost among them--would continue the quest for a "more perfect union."

Such has been our success in building a powerful and cohesive democratic nation-state in post-Civil War America that most Americans today assume that principles of democracy and national harmony somehow naturally go hand-in-hand. But as we look around the rest of the world in the post-Soviet era, we find ample evidence that democratic revolutions do not inevitably lead to national harmony or universal justice. We see that the expression of the "popular will" can create a cacophony of discordant voices, leaving many baffled about the true meaning of majority rule. In far too many places around the world today, the expression of the "popular will" is nothing more than the unleashing of primordial forces of tribal and religious identity which further confound the goal of building stable and consensual governments.
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If there is a lesson in all of this it is that our Constitution is neither a self-actuating nor a self-correcting document. It requires the constant attention and devotion of all citizens. There is a story, often told, that upon exiting the Constitutional Convention Benjamin Franklin was approached by a group of citizens asking what sort of government the delegates had created. His answer was: "A republic, if you can keep it." The brevity of that response should not cause us to under-value its essential meaning: democratic republics are not merely founded upon the consent of the people, they are also absolutely dependent upon the active and informed involvement of the people for their continued good health.

More (it's a good read, I tried to quote the most salient points only):

 
What we have here, is a confluence of negative mileposts: The Fourth Turning, the 250th Anniversary...all tucked into one.

Say what you will about Strauss and Howe; but what they were observing, in their Generational Cycle theory, was documentable trends. This is a mindset that's new to me - I can see cause, effect, second-order effects that were not intended, or which were deliberately intended but hidden from public discussion. But I've ignored trends - because I didn't believe in periodic patterns.

Well, I'm a new convert. The Strauss-Howe model holds true, both for us and for other peoples. How long did the Bolshevik movement hold Russia and satellite states, in bondage? Eighty years...just as the theory holds. How long has our postwar modern age run? Almost, not quite, eighty years. As did the period after the War Between the States, on to the Second World War.

The 250-year duration of empire/global power, is more flexible, but the trend is there. A nation's rise - it's young or with new ideas or fresh impetus with young leaders. The ideas mature and blossom; they bear fruit; a culture grows...and grows corrupt and aged. And finally the forces of ruination (every society has malcontents) triumph and the society falls to the default level, privation and tyranny.

How we get out of this, I do not know. It will be harder now that we're overrun with between 15 and 40 million alien invaders. But the resolution of a Fourth Turning, sets the course for the next eighty or so years.

We should choose wisely.
 
The real patriot is the one who fights to keep the original ideals of the founding fathers alive.
It is NOT the one who blindly follows their government.

One must remember this is very much what the British colonists went through when establishing this country.
They were British citizens. (as there was no "America" yet)
They hated the philosophy and the policies of King George and they stood FOR was was right and against what WAS wrong.

One must also keep in mind that our constitution declares that our rights come from God, not from man. Not from any man (government). It is exactly this point that makes (made?) America great. The American dream doesn't come from anything the government does, it comes form what the government does not do, cannot do, by design.

Ronald Reagan, is his inaugural address, said “We are a nation that has a government–not the other way around. And this makes us special among the nations of the Earth.”

I would have liked to see it stay that way but, sadly, it looks as though that ship has sailed.
 
What we have here, is a confluence of negative mileposts: The Fourth Turning, the 250th Anniversary...all tucked into one.

Say what you will about Strauss and Howe; but what they were observing, in their Generational Cycle theory, was documentable trends. This is a mindset that's new to me - I can see cause, effect, second-order effects that were not intended, or which were deliberately intended but hidden from public discussion. But I've ignored trends - because I didn't believe in periodic patterns.

Well, I'm a new convert. The Strauss-Howe model holds true, both for us and for other peoples. How long did the Bolshevik movement hold Russia and satellite states, in bondage? Eighty years...just as the theory holds. How long has our postwar modern age run? Almost, not quite, eighty years. As did the period after the War Between the States, on to the Second World War.

The 250-year duration of empire/global power, is more flexible, but the trend is there. A nation's rise - it's young or with new ideas or fresh impetus with young leaders. The ideas mature and blossom; they bear fruit; a culture grows...and grows corrupt and aged. And finally the forces of ruination (every society has malcontents) triumph and the society falls to the default level, privation and tyranny.

How we get out of this, I do not know. It will be harder now that we're overrun with between 15 and 40 million alien invaders. But the resolution of a Fourth Turning, sets the course for the next eighty or so years.

We should choose wisely.
As a convert to supporting the concept of periodic patterns, you might enjoy looking into the the four great epochs documented in the ancient texts of Hinduism: Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dwapar Yuga, and Kali Yuga. Satya Yuga or the Age of Truth is said to last for 4,000 divine years, Treta Yuga for 3,000, Dwapara Yuga for 2,000 and Kali Yuga will last for 1,000 divine years—a divine year equaling 432,000 earthly years. After cycling through all four Yugas, it starts over again, and each Yuga has unique characteristics, like in the Strauss-Howe model. If I recall, most are in agreement that we are leaving a Kali Yuga at this time.
 
Trends that long, are hard to accurately follow.

I don't discount them; we just cannot know. History (not legend or myth) is not preserved that far back.
 
I understand your paradigm. We, in today's society, have not been allowed to understand history . A lot more exists than most are aware or will acknlowledge because we have been told to ignore it by "scholars"...
 
I understand your paradigm. We, in today's society, have not been allowed to understand history . A lot more exists than most are aware or will acknlowledge because we have been told to ignore it by "scholars"...
But, more to the point, thousands of years ago, we were illiterate. Go back 6000 years, and written language hadn't been invented.

Oral histories are often wildly distorted.

So...I'd say, there's no way to know. Theoretically, scholars 6000 years in the future, will be able to identify factually...but I don't think either this planet or our species will survive 6000 years.
 
The planet will likely orbit the sun until it (the sun) goes supernova. I seriously doubt humans will still be around by then though.
 
As a convert to supporting the concept of periodic patterns, you might enjoy looking into the the four great epochs documented in the ancient texts of Hinduism: Satya Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dwapar Yuga, and Kali Yuga. Satya Yuga or the Age of Truth is said to last for 4,000 divine years, Treta Yuga for 3,000, Dwapara Yuga for 2,000 and Kali Yuga will last for 1,000 divine years—a divine year equaling 432,000 earthly years. After cycling through all four Yugas, it starts over again, and each Yuga has unique characteristics, like in the Strauss-Howe model. If I recall, most are in agreement that we are leaving a Kali Yuga at this time.

First time I've heard of this. Sounds like it could be interesting reading. @Evl Bnkr if you have the time and desire, I think it could make for an interesting thread.
 
As far as periodic generational events go, there is ample evidence to support that there is something to it.
Certainly in the US, as there has been major turmoil reoccurring every 80 years or so since its Founding. Ie: roughly every four generations.

In a nutshell, it's current generations forgetting the lessons of the past and making mistakes that allow those lessons to be learned anew.
 
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