Politics and the PMBug ethos

[pmbug]

And we so appreciated being called Putin cocksuckers by you. I guess your actual words were, "Putin knob slobbering." So family friendly and all.
...

My comment (whole and with context) was:

She has been accused (by folks in her own party) of being a Russian asset back during her campaign for the D nomination for POTUS. That probably is a check in the plus column for some of you judging by how much Russian/Putin knob slobbering I've seen. ...

1. I did not call anyone a cocksucker. My comment was directed to the content of some posts in the forum, not to the character of any member of the forum or to all GIM2 refugees in general for that matter.
2. I wasn't wrong (there are a lot of posts in the forum celebrating Putin/Russia), I just wasn't very diplomatic in expressing myself.
3. I apologized for my undiplomatic language. I'm human and make mistakes just like anyone. I own my mistakes though.

We can be at odds in how we view the world. Differences of opinion challenge the intellectually honest to question themselves and can expand the horizons of perception and thinking. It's a good thing when all parties are engaged honestly.

When folks don't engage honestly, we have a problem. I'm seeing a lot of it right now (mostly in the Politics forum):

1. Posting mischaracterizations of fact(s) without any follow up acknowledgement when shown to be incorrect.
2. One way dialogues - refusing to acknowledge or consider facts or logic that contradict cognitive bias
3. Repeating mischaracterizations of fact(s) in the same thread where it's already been demonstrated to be false.
4. Promotion of 3rd party editorials without any comment. This looks like propaganda spam to me. There is no discussion happening, just promotion of 3rd party content.

What a warm welcome to new people who quickly financially supported this new place.
...

I do appreciate the financial support from all the GIM2 refugees. I have bent over backwards to earn that support with improvements to the site. I have spent a *lot* of time and effort both online (fixing the email issue, setting up Stripe and ditching PayPal, applying updates to the server environment and forum software, installing add-on mods, configuring forum rooms and moving hundreds and hundreds of posts around to keep things organized) and offline (setting up bank account and PO box to handle check payments for folks who don't want to use credit cards). The support from GIM2 folks has been nice, but it honestly hasn't come close to covering the time, effort and expenses that I've invested in the site.

I created this site to provide a forum for people interested in gold, silver, sound money and macro economics a place to discuss issues related to same. PMBug was never intended to be a political site for folks to incite or champion violence, promote 3rd party propaganda or thinly veiled bigotry. I'm seeing a lot of it in the forum right now though.

I don't enjoy exercising moderating powers. I much prefer to treat everyone here as an adult and just set boundaries/expectations so folks know where the lines are drawn and conduct themselves accordingly. However, if folks can't respect the lines and use a modicum of decorum and self control, I'm going to be forced to solve the problem.

There is too much "shit on the wall" to be cleaned up easily. Right now, I'm inclined to just hide the Politics forum from public view. I imagine that will mitigate a lot of the propaganda spam at least.

 

[Unca Walt]

EEK.

 

[cheka]

truth needs no protection

lies do

ie -- over time, free speech susses out the truth. restricted speech attempts to prevent this and only harms the process

a lot of arguments are not settled until months/years have passed by. trying to censor views/facts/predictions in real time is tragically flawed

still, your new members are sympathetic to any outside (communist psycho) pressure the site owner may fear/feel. if site owner is uncomfortable for this reason, the new members will have zero issues with turning down the heat on their rhetoric. just tell them about the heat that is felt or feared.

 

[Goldhedge]

a place to discuss issues related to same.

There's nothing about "money" that involves politics. Got it.

PMBug was never intended to be a political site for folks to incite or champion violence, promote 3rd party propaganda or thinly veiled bigotry.

According to whom? I don't see any 'Stormfront' posts, violence, or 3rd party propaganda, not sure about bigotry... but I am getting the idea we've overstayed our welcome for some reason....

I was going to warn you about the 'Girls' thread (past history), but figured that would sort itself out all on its own and by golly it did!

I didn't want to prejudice anyone.

configuring forum rooms and moving hundreds and hundreds of posts around to keep things organized)

I offered to 'help'.

EEK.

Double EEK!

However, if folks can't respect the lines and use a modicum of decorum and self control, I'm going to be forced to solve the problem.

You do what you think you need to do.

We'll do the same.

 

[nickndfl]

Let's talk about something less controversial than politics like religion.

 

[Newmisty]

Hey Nick, can you pass the parmasan cheese please?

Mmm. Better thanks.

Man I don't want nobody shoehornin' me in with bigots and knob slobbers.

 

[Viking]

I volunteer to be the Fact Checker.

 

[Casey Jones]

truth needs no protection

lies do

ie -- over time, free speech susses out the truth. restricted speech attempts to prevent this and only harms the process

a lot of arguments are not settled until months/years have passed by. trying to censor views/facts/predictions in real time is tragically flawed

still, your new members are sympathetic to any outside (communist psycho) pressure the site owner may fear/feel. if site owner is uncomfortable for this reason, the new members will have zero issues with turning down the heat on their rhetoric. just tell them about the heat that is felt or feared.

The age we live in.

Open discussion...something the Internet promised to make free and easy - is rapidly becoming an historical aberration. A short-time fluke, of the past.

The censorship now seen by the Tech Autistics...makes Goebbels or Pravda, seem like pikers.

 

[Newmisty]

I volunteer to be the Fact Checker.

Ok Viking volunteered to get all the fat chicks

 

[Voodoo]

I volunteer to be the Fact Checker.

Let me check your social Credit Score. Ohh... Yeah that's a no.

 

[MrLucky]

Go on vacation for a week and all hell breaks loose. Think I'll take another week off.

 

[Bigfoot]

We can be at odds in how we view the world. Differences of opinion challenge the intellectually honest to question themselves and can expand the horizons of perception and thinking.

I'm 100% with you on that. Well stated.

I'm seeing a lot of it right now (mostly in the Politics forum):

1. Posting mischaracterizations of fact(s) without any follow up acknowledgement when shown to be incorrect.
2. One way dialogues - refusing to acknowledge or consider facts or logic that contradict cognitive bias
3. Repeating mischaracterizations of fact(s) in the same thread where it's already been demonstrated to be false.
4. Promotion of 3rd party editorials without any comment. This looks like propaganda spam to me. There is no discussion happening, just promotion of 3rd party content.

1. With all respect, that is your opinion.
2. With all respect, that is your opinion.
3. Demonstrated to be false by who? Your opinion? LOL.
4. Spam implies advertising. I don't think any of the members are making money on their posts. How can we have honest discussions without user initiated content? In my opinion, King World News is more 3rd Party propaganda/spam than anything I've seen posted by the members thus far.

I don't enjoy exercising moderating powers. I much prefer to treat everyone here as an adult and just set boundaries/expectations so folks know where the lines are drawn and conduct themselves accordingly.

All I am asking is that you don't ban people because you disagree with them, or aren't interested in topics that they are. Wealth, which gold is a storage place of, is really connected to all aspects of society. People interested in wealth are going to want to have honest (non-censored) conversations about political issues.

How about drawing the boundary line at ad hominem attacks by one participant to another? I think most will find that reasonable, and it shouldn't require a heavy load of moderating.

 

[Unca Walt]

How about making the boundary ad hominem attacks against participants? All I am asking is that you don't ban people because you disagree with them, or aren't interested in topics that they are. Wealth, which gold is a storage place of, is really connected to all aspects of society. People interested in wealth are going to want to have honest (non-censored) conversations about political issues.

Wow! The only thing I would change in that paragraph would be to italicize "ad hominem".

 

[<SLV>]

The amount of contentious prattle is directly proportionate to the stagnation of the price of gold.

 

[Unca Walt]

1. Posting mischaracterizations of fact(s) without any follow up acknowledgement when shown to be incorrect.

This is where I can help ease a sore. Folks will see an article that has interest, and then they quote and source the article.

POSIT: The article is slap wrong.

You show the poster how the article is wrong. At this point, the poster can do one of three things:

1. Reply with apology, complete with "source of the source" being stained. <-- As I did when you showed my error.

2. Read the proof of error, and think: "Well, I screwed that one for sure." -- And drops it, never mentioning it again. (forgets it)

3. React like an ass, and continue to piss in the soup.

Reactions 1 and 2 are perfectly acceptable.

Insistence on Reaction 1 only is the flip side of the coin. Sorta like counting coup.

Reaction 3 individuals should have an enema.

Hope this helps. It ain't much, but it does set a standard that seems fair and a whole lotta less work for mother.

 

[searcher]

How about drawing the boundary line at ad hominem attacks by one participant to another?

Personal attacks by one member against another for something they posted shouldn't be tolerated.

Folks will see an article that has interest, and then they quote and source the article.

The article is slap wrong.

Some articles are opinions, some propaganda and some outright lies. Really not too hard to check out stuff before it's posted if you're not sure of it's veracity.

The support from GIM2 folks has been nice, but it honestly hasn't come close to covering the time, effort and expenses that I've invested in the site.

Need some help? Just a thought - I wouldn't mind looking into a few posts to check for crapola, lies, nonsense and outright bullshit. I'm pretty good at it.

There is too much "shit on the wall" to be cleaned up easily. Right now, I'm inclined to just hide the Politics forum from public view. I imagine that will mitigate a lot of the propaganda spam at least.

GIM has a couple of hidden (members only) sections. It's where you'll find the more festive subjects along with some rather opinionated & imaginative members.

_______________________________________

Your house. Your rules.

 

[Bigfoot]

Personal attacks by one member against another for something they posted shouldn't be tolerated.

Yes. Agreed.

Some articles are opinions, some propaganda and some outright lies.

I think establishing the Ministry of Truth is a really bad idea. People have to decide for themselves what is true. That's what makes a place like this so valuable, having access to uncensored information. Having a mod delete posts or ban users based on what the mod personally believes is exactly what we don't want.

 

[Bigfoot]

There's no rules in politics. Rules for this forum room are the same as every forum room here. Please be respectful to all members - have a sense of decorum. Thanks.

Bam! There it is! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Let's stick with that. That's a wonderful way to govern, right there.

 

[Newmisty]

- I wouldn't mind looking into a few posts to check for crapola, lies, nonsense and outright bullshit. I'm pretty good at it.

 

[TRYNEIN]

I, unfortunately have a SLOW internet service because of where I live, but I read a lot of information from lots of places around the internet and I post things that most people want to know about. If I post an article that turns out to be false, I welcome some other poster who has more time and a faster connection to post proof that it is false. I think it is better for people to see what is being posted and that it is bogus, than to delete it and nobody sees it. That way more people are informed and they can debunk it out in the world.


As for PM's and Politics not going together...well...one has to realize that it was the crooked politicians that stole our sound money (and country) in the first place and the only way to get it back is is by removing the them. So, in my opinion, Politics and PM's do go hand-in-hand.


As far as a 'Members Only' section, I've been hoping one would appear on here. There are some members here that have enough information that can and has changed peoples lives

These are only my opinions and don't mean chit because this site does belong to you and you are free to run it as you see fit

 

[SongSungAu]

My comment (whole and with context) was:

"with context" implies I took your words out of context. I do not believe that is the case. I'm certainly not the only person who took it that way.

I did not call anyone a cocksucker. My comment was directed to the content of some posts in the forum

Posts don't post themselves. Posts require people to post them. Depending upon the wording, slamming a post, in effect, can be taken as slamming the poster. Knob slobbering doesn't happen by itself either, it takes a knob-slobberer.

I apologized for my undiplomatic language.

Yes, you did apologize. So if I call my wife a bitch, then say "baby, I'm sorry." She immediately forgets I ever said it. Right. You can wipe mud off a wall but it still leaves a stain.

We can be at odds in how we view the world.

I totally agree with you on this.

The support from GIM2 folks has been nice, but it honestly hasn't come close to covering the time, effort and expenses that I've invested in the site.

My post didn't imply that the Gimmers were financing this place. Merely pointed out the dissing of some folks who quickly, almost immediately, gave financial support to this place.

There is too much "shit on the wall" to be cleaned up easily

Yep. Because everyone will have a different list of what is "shit on the wall."
But it is your place so do as you please. We will either accept it or we will find another home elsewhere.

Okay, I will move on and say no more about the matter. Someone else can have the last word. I am done.
.

 

[spinalcracker]

Proverbs 27:17

New International Version

​

17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one person sharpens another.


no doubt most of us here have MORE in common than what we disagree on

i love a good robust debate

 

[Newmisty]

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Lots of frustrated alpha energy in tumultuous times is going to cause some friction and chaos. Tough skin and controlled reactions are necessary just about everywhere today.

 

[Joe King]

Right now, I'm inclined to just hide the Politics forum from public view.

Whether the politics forum or not, would it not be a good idea to have at least one forum page that is private? Ie: members only?
Perhaps even with a minimum number posts required to access it?

Does everything on the site really need to be google searchable?

 

[pmbug]

All I am asking is that you don't ban people because you disagree with them, or aren't interested in topics that they are. ...

Yeah, you GIM2 folks are new to the site and don't know me very well, but rest assured that that has never been my M.O.. I've been moderating online communities since the days of dial up BBSes. It's a hobby that I usually enjoy (I might be a masochist) and over all that time, I have never banned someone just because I disagreed with them. If anything, I'm too forgiving (to a fault) and sometimes a community doesn't appreciate how much slack I give troublemakers and malcontents (those labels not meant to apply to anyone here - I'm speaking of my past experience with other communities none of which were related to precious metals, macro economics or politics).

I posted what I consider to be very reasonable forum guidelines and as long as folks abide it, I see no cause for banhammers. The main issue here - and the one I attempted to address in the OP of this thread, is that some folk are not conducting themselves as honest actors. Intellectually dishonest discussion might be a defect of personality (folks genuinely not understanding how their cognitive bias is blinding them) or it might be purposeful (commonly understood as trolling). Either way, it is not respectful to other parties in the conversation and that's where it runs afoul of the forum guidelines.

Maybe I'm being a bit oblique in raising the issue here. I try to treat folks with respect and it only works when folks return it in kind. I'm not wanting to call anyone out specifically. I am not wanting to embarrass anyone or treat anyone like a child. This is my style. I'm telling everyone what the expectation is here. Take a moment and ask yourself if you are engaging honestly or not (I'm speaking to everyone - not specifically Bigfoot).

...
POSIT: The article is slap wrong.

You show the poster how the article is wrong. At this point, the poster can do one of three things:

1. Reply with apology, complete with "source of the source" being stained. <-- As I did when you showed my error.

2. Read the proof of error, and think: "Well, I screwed that one for sure." -- And drops it, never mentioning it again. (forgets it)

3. React like an ass, and continue to piss in the soup.
...

4. Ignore any critical comment (proof or not, an honest discussion would recognize and address them) and carry on like they don't exit - perhaps even repeating the original claim again later on

5. Community (folks other that OP) ignores critical comment and piles on

I have seen 4 & 5 much more than 3.

Also, I do want to thank @Unca Walt and @TRYNEIN for being honest and having integrity when something they posted was demonstrated to be false. I'm not painting with broad brushes here. I'm calling out what I consider to be disrespectful conduct in a general way and giving you fine folk the opportunity to be adults.

Need some help? ...

I have received several offers from GIM2 refugees to help moderate the site. I have not accepted any of them as of yet. It's not that I don't appreciate the offers. It's more that I don't know you and you don't know me. You don't yet understand my style for community management. This isn't GIM2 and I'm likely not managing this site the way you are used to having things done at GIM2. So, we're in a bit of a honeymoon phase at the moment. I may ask/invite people to assist with moderating the site in time.

I think establishing the Ministry of Truth is a really bad idea. People have to decide for themselves what is true. That's what makes a place like this so valuable, having access to uncensored information. Having a mod delete posts or ban users based on what the mod personally believes is exactly what we don't want.

Again, I'm not interested in arbitrating truth. Truth and propaganda are two sides of an opinion/perspective. Facts are primal though and provide a good basis for thoughtful discussion (on interpreting them). What I am demanding is intellectual honesty and respect. Dialogues/conversations need to be two way streets.

I, unfortunately have a SLOW internet service because of where I live, but I read a lot of information from lots of places around the internet and I post things that most people want to know about. If I post an article that turns out to be false, I welcome some other poster who has more time and a faster connection to post proof that it is false. I think it is better for people to see what is being posted and that it is bogus, than to delete it and nobody sees it. That way more people are informed and they can debunk it out in the world. ...

Well, that's an example of what I call flinging poo at the wall. If everyone did that, the house would be a stinky mess.

Here's a pro-tip for folks. If the 3rd party content you found uses all caps in the title and makes outrageous claims, it's probably worth your time to do a little due diligence before posting it here.

... Yes, you did apologize. ...

It's obvious that my comment triggered you. I'm sorry that happened.

 

[pmbug]

... would it not be a good idea to have at least one forum page that is private? ...

A good idea? Maybe. Perhaps. Perhaps not. What happens in darkness that doesn't thrive in the light? Give me a compelling argument and I'll consider it.

 

[Joe King]

A good idea? Maybe. Perhaps. Perhaps not. What happens in darkness that doesn't thrive in the light? Give me a compelling argument and I'll consider it.

I was just thinking that it would be a way to keep the far left idiots from easily being able to browse/search through the site in order to find things that might trigger them into attacking you and/or this site.
After all, they do in fact have a track record of doing such things.
....and they'll do it even for actual facts that they just don't like.

For example, look at what they are doing to twitter right now, just because they are afraid of what someone might be allowed to post at some point in the future. Nothing has changed there regarding content moderation.
....yet they are attempting to destroy it.

I don't want that happening here.
....but I also don't want censorship to appease them, either. Making it so they just can't see certain things, seems to be the better way.

Just throwing something at the "wall". Lol

Take it as you see fit.

 

[pmbug]

I was just thinking that it would be a way to keep the far left idiots from easily being able to browse/search through the site in order to find things that might trigger them into attacking you and/or this site. ...

If conversations were intellectually honest explorations for truth, I would have no problem defending my property from detractors (triggered or otherwise).

 

[Joe King]

If conversations were intellectually honest explorations for truth, I would have no problem defending my property from detractors (triggered or otherwise).

I'd prefer not having to defend against them at all. Once you get their ire, they won't stop.

 

[Goldhedge]

I have never banned someone just because I disagreed with them. If anything, I'm too forgiving (to a fault) and sometimes a community doesn't appreciate how much slack I give troublemakers and malcontents (those labels not meant to apply to anyone here - I'm speaking of my past experience with other communities none of which were related to precious metals, macro economics or politics).

That is/was my philosophy for the last 20 years. Though the power was in my hands, I rarely if ever used it, maybe 4 times?

Spammers got insta banned, not opinions.

I spent my time editing (adding paragraphs to 40 line paragraphs - who reads crap like that? - better yet 'who' writes like that?) and moving threads around.

If banning someone became an issue we (mods) would discuss it (that keeps the gunslingers in check - and we had a few) and come to consensus before proceeding, or not.

The discussion is a healthy one and only good will come of it.

 

[Farpdinkle]

This isn't GIM2

Thank Goodness...

 

[Joe King]

Thank Goodness...

Yep. Nary a chemtrail thread to be found. Lol

Edited to add: nor a flat Earth one either. Lol

 

[agcoacres]

My comment (whole and with context) was:

1. I did not call anyone a cocksucker. My comment was directed to the content of some posts in the forum, not to the character of any member of the forum or to all GIM2 refugees in general for that matter.
2. I wasn't wrong (there are a lot of posts in the forum celebrating Putin/Russia), I just wasn't very diplomatic in expressing myself.
3. I apologized for my undiplomatic language. I'm human and make mistakes just like anyone. I own my mistakes though.

We can be at odds in how we view the world. Differences of opinion challenge the intellectually honest to question themselves and can expand the horizons of perception and thinking. It's a good thing when all parties are engaged honestly.

When folks don't engage honestly, we have a problem. I'm seeing a lot of it right now (mostly in the Politics forum):

1. Posting mischaracterizations of fact(s) without any follow up acknowledgement when shown to be incorrect.
2. One way dialogues - refusing to acknowledge or consider facts or logic that contradict cognitive bias
3. Repeating mischaracterizations of fact(s) in the same thread where it's already been demonstrated to be false.
4. Promotion of 3rd party editorials without any comment. This looks like propaganda spam to me. There is no discussion happening, just promotion of 3rd party content.

I do appreciate the financial support from all the GIM2 refugees. I have bent over backwards to earn that support with improvements to the site. I have spent a *lot* of time and effort both online (fixing the email issue, setting up Stripe and ditching PayPal, applying updates to the server environment and forum software, installing add-on mods, configuring forum rooms and moving hundreds and hundreds of posts around to keep things organized) and offline (setting up bank account and PO box to handle check payments for folks who don't want to use credit cards). The support from GIM2 folks has been nice, but it honestly hasn't come close to covering the time, effort and expenses that I've invested in the site.

I created this site to provide a forum for people interested in gold, silver, sound money and macro economics a place to discuss issues related to same. PMBug was never intended to be a political site for folks to incite or champion violence, promote 3rd party propaganda or thinly veiled bigotry. I'm seeing a lot of it in the forum right now though.

I don't enjoy exercising moderating powers. I much prefer to treat everyone here as an adult and just set boundaries/expectations so folks know where the lines are drawn and conduct themselves accordingly. However, if folks can't respect the lines and use a modicum of decorum and self control, I'm going to be forced to solve the problem.

There is too much "shit on the wall" to be cleaned up easily. Right now, I'm inclined to just hide the Politics forum from public view. I imagine that will mitigate a lot of the propaganda spam at least.

The truth of the matter is that GIM had become a political forum with a side of PM and investments chatter. All that anyone has to do is look at the post counts.

Seems that much of the GIM crowd are hard working people that are disgusted with the turn that the country we love has taken and feel relatively powerless to do much more than watch it all circle down the drain. Just doesn’t seem to be much opportunity to air our collective frustration outside of the odd Internet forum.

Sorry if we are a pain your ass. I don’t think that was anyone’s intention. It’s your forum and your rules. Do what you think needs to be done.

 

[Joe King]

The truth of the matter is that GIM had become a political forum with a side of PM and investments chatter.

PM's and gold especially, are seeped in politics.

I'd go so far as to say that one cannot be fully informed on PM's without also understanding the politics that have surrounded the subject for far longer than any of us have been alive.

Government has made PM's political.

 

[BigJim]

PM's and gold especially, are seeped in politics.

I'd go so far as to say that one cannot be fully informed on PM's without also understanding the politics that have surrounded rhe subject for far longer than any of us have been alive.

Government has made PM's political.

.g0v has made EVERYTHING political.

 

[Newmisty]

.g0v has made EVERYTHING political.

Of course I know what you mean and agree, but to be pedantic, that's de facto to it's very nature and definition.



Just trying to be lighthearted about it. Helps regulate my blood pressure!
Reminds me of my friend who would be in the middle of something and the phone would ring and he'd frustratingly yell, "Damn phone! All it does is ring!" To which I'd playfully reply, "Yeah Dick, that's it's job! It's a phone!"

 

[Uglytruth]

D list political hacks have taken over our lives by manipulating the value of our savings in dollars, metals, housing, manufacturing or bitcoin.........
There is nothing to talk about as far as metals go unless fiat goes away or is backed by metals. We all know that will never happen........
But the BRICS may just have the last say in that. It will be a fight to the death betwen "honest money" nations against the khazarian mafia.

All the hours spent reading & studying. All the fiat we have exchanged for metals to guard against high inflation rates no longer seems to work as a defense. Our metal insurance policy is just another burden while debt seems to be the new money......... until it fails. Are we close? Do they unleash digital fed bux? Do they continue to print for another 10-20 years when most of us will be gone & 40 year olds with nothing will be 60 year olds with nothing? Are their hands forced by other nations in a global economy? Does this lead to global war? Time and politics will tell. Until then we will talk but its' spin and speculation. Think of it as Trey Gowdy....... lots of words no action.

 

[agcoacres]

PM's and gold especially, are seeped in politics.

I'd go so far as to say that one cannot be fully informed on PM's without also understanding the politics that have surrounded the subject for far longer than any of us have been alive.

Government has made PM's political.

Agreed, but there was not much mention of PMs in the political section and not all that much activity in the PM and investments sections at all, outside of Zed’s Lunatic Fringe thread.

 

[Joe King]

Agreed, but there was not much mention of PMs in the political section and not all that much activity in the PM and investments sections at all, outside of Zed’s Lunatic Fringe thread.

The lackluster PM performance over the last several years prolly played a role in that.

 

[Buck]

so, i'm reading this as if I'm Now The Sane One...i've avoided damn near all obstacles, chances at jokes out the wazoo,,,if only to appease the 'new gods' and it turns out it was for good reason


you guys argue over the chaff...us others will be over here continuing the discussions and you folks are always welcome back


hey, if I can Do It, anyone can Do Ti..er, It...

come on boys...have a beer