Khashoggi death - USA principles vs Saudi oil and the petrodollar

Welcome to the Precious Metals Bug Forums

Welcome to the PMBug forums - a watering hole for folks interested in gold, silver, precious metals, sound money, investing, market and economic news, central bank monetary policies, politics and more. You can visit the forum page to see the list of forum nodes (categories/rooms) for topics.

Why not register an account and join the discussions? When you register an account and log in, you may enjoy additional benefits including no Google ads, market data/charts, access to trade/barter with the community and much more. Registering an account is free - you have nothing to lose!

pmbug

Your Host
Administrator
Benefactor
Messages
15,947
Reaction score
5,514
Points
268
Location
Texas
United-States
The zombie Apocalypse will be when the rest of the world stops buying our debt ...

It seems inconceivable that this could come to pass, but damn if the neoconservatives aren't taking it as a personal challenge. I'm reminded of that scene in Robin Williams' horrible Popeye movie where the tax man is taxing everything imaginable before Popeye finally gets fed up and rebels. Sanctions, sanctions, swift. Sanctions, sanctions, swift.

I don't think I posted about it yet, but the business with this Khashoggi guy that the Saudi's purportedly assassinated in their embassy in Turkey on the order of the crown prince could end up being a significant inflection point in the US-Saudi relationship and consequently, the petrodollar.
 
If they indeed assassinated this guy, and if they did so in their own embassy, then we will be right in sanctioning them. However, we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Like it or not, we need their oil. We simply do not produce enough juice to sate our current thirst. That is a fact. Canada can give us some, we can supply a lot of the rest, but we need more. We simply are too fat and sassy for our own good right now. We refuse to carpool, we refuse to conserve, and we refuse to drive little cars like they do all over Europe. That is the truth of it.

We're addicted to Saudi oil.

When I was in Singapore, My buddies and I went across the causeway from Singapore to Malasia. We then got in to a little bitty "cab" called a Tuk-Tuk. This thing was little more than a moped pulling an enclosed cab behind it. He took us in to Johor Baru, where we could walk through the markets and eat mystery meat from street vendors and drink 12% beer in the open air.

These little Tuk Tuks were every where. So were mopeds. You rarely saw cars. If you saw a vehicle, it was a small truck, usually with a bunch of people sitting in benches in the back of it.

These people know all too well that the gas they use costs them 6 bucks a gallon, so they use it wisely. They further know it isn't produced in their country, and that every drop is imported.

The point of this rant is that while we fill up our Hummers with little or no thought as to where the fuel comes from, the geopolitical ramifications of what has happened in the past week or two will have ripple effects that plow through the economy if this isn't thought out in an extremely careful and thoughtful manner.
 
It's not just Joe Sixpack's consumption of oil that is an issue. Our economy is built upon a trucking industry that depends upon oil. Our nation is a huge landmass.

For fun, I looked up a couple things:

Gas consumption in the USA apparently peaked in 2007 and has been more or less steady since:

https://www.statista.com/statistics...-consumption-for-highway-vehicles-since-1992/

In 2017, the United States imported approximately 10.14 million barrels per day (MMb/d) of petroleum from about 84 countries. Petroleum includes crude oil, hydrocarbon gas liquids, refined petroleum products such as gasoline and diesel fuel, and biofuels including ethanol and biodiesel. Crude oil accounted for about 79% of U.S. gross petroleum imports in 2017 and non-crude oil petroleum accounted for about 21% of gross petroleum imports.

In 2017, the United States exported about 6.38 MMb/d of petroleum to 186 countries, of which about 18% was crude oil and 82% was non-crude oil petroleum. The resulting net imports (imports minus exports) of petroleum were about 3.77 MMb/d.

The top five source countries of U.S. petroleum imports in 2017 were Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela, and Iraq.
...

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6

That said, the bigger problem with punishing the Saudis is the threat of them selling their oil to the rest of the world in foreign currencies. Because if they can do it without the Libya treatment, the rest of the middle east will too. And at that point, the petrodollar system falls apart.

I suppose the silver lining would be that Americans finally wake up to the fraud that the Federal Reserve system has foisted upon us.
 
Saudi Arabia going away from the petro dollar would break the fundamental agreement that keeps the Saud clan in power.

The US guarantees their position of control as long as they only sell their oil in US$.

While this could be threatened it would be game over if enacted.
 
The MIC is what keeps the House of Saud in power, that and nothing else. When the stream of weapons stops, only China or Russia can step in to the void to help, and even then, they would have to completely replace their entire weapons platforms. The Saudis purchase hundreds of billions in weapons and aircraft from us to protect themselves, and do so under a tacit agreement that they continue to provide an uninterrupted stream on Saudi oil and help keep the peace in the ME. In addition, they agree to help keep the price of oil relatively stable by being the worlds swing producer.
 
perhaps he should have read the nailgun instructions before using ........

Theres also some speculation that the whole thing is a false flag and that Kashoggi is alive and well ?

Its odd that the msm and the dems are getting involved.

Cui bono ?
 
Khashoggi is dead (and reportedly dismembered and smuggled out of Turkey). It looks to me like the MSM and Dems are so blinded by Trump derangement syndrome that they will push against the administration's efforts to minimize this just to have another issue to castigate Trump without really thinking through the consequences of their efforts. I guarantee that if Obama were still POTUS, they would be playing ball in seeking some diplomatic resolution. It's a complete shit sandwich al around and the only real way out is for the Saudi King to renounce the Crown Prince and I don't see that happening.
 
from https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-16/arabian-game-thrones-heats

In November 2017, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) ordered the arrest and detention at the Riyadh Ritz Carlton Hotel of over 200 members of the Saudi royal family, including eleven rival princes, as well as government ministers and influential businessmen. That came after an October 2017 meeting in Riyadh between MBS and Donald Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, conclave that lasted well into the early morning hours. At the meeting, Kushner is said to have turned over to MBS a list of the names of the Crown Prince’s opponents: leading figures of the Saudi royal house, government, and major businesses.The list may have also contained the name "Jamal Ahmad Khashoggi."

The list of Saudi names was, reportedly, compiled by Kushner from top secret special code word documents he had specifically requested from the National Security Agency (NSA) and Central Intelligence Agency. The documents were specifically requested by Kushner, not because he was an expert in communications intercepts, but because he likely had a control officer who told him what files to obtain. The Kushner family have longstanding ties to the Israeli Likud Party, as well as the Mossad intelligence service. The Mossad enjoys a close working relationship with the Saudi General Intelligence Directorate, which is now firmly committed to MBS after a previous purge of its upper ranks following MBS’s rise to the heir apparent position in the House of Saud.

Those on the list handed over to MBS by Kushner were all subjects of NSA and CIA communications intercepts of phone calls, video conferences, and emails. Kushner is said to have had a phone conversation with MBS a day before Khashoggi was murdered.



Or do Trumps opponents see an opportunity to blame him ?
 
"The list may have also contained ..."

It would appear that ZH is just speculating at this point. I would think if there were any truth to this "deep state" resistance to the Trump administration, provable facts related to this would find its way into the hands of some Dem Senators.
 
Oh snap!

enos_7.jpg
 
We can't just turn away from Saudi Arabia, nor do I think we can definitively prove that MBS ordered that this guy be dismembered alive. However, someone pretty high up the food chain knew what was going to go down when sixteen guys boarded a G5 and flew out then immediately back to SA. Maybe it really was a botched interrogation, and shit got out of control. When you start cutting off a guys fingers, he's pretty much gonna tell whatever you want to fucking hear.....at least I would. For the love of Christ man, the word is they cut him up with a friggin bone saw while alive. That is as gruesome as it gets. Even the CIA doesn't let it go down like that.
 
Even more chilling ( for me anyway ) was the Pathologist putting his ear plugs in so he could listen to his music whilst sawing and a recommendation to the others that they do this too ....... music while you work ??? Clearly zero empathy for another human being.

wonder whats on his playlist
 
... Maybe it really was a botched interrogation, ...

Yeah, I don't think anyone is buying that. It's pretty clear that MBS ordered Khashoggi to be disappeared.

You know, the entire world changed in 1914 with the assassination of one dude (Franz Ferdinand). I don't think we see a world war over Khashoggi's death - at least not directly - but the ramifications of his death could have as much or more of a dramatic impact upon the world.
 
Can anyone explain why the dems showed no interest about finding out what happened to 4 Americans killed in our own embassy, but are in a lather about what happened to a foreigner, in a foreign embassy? :shrug: I mean, they wouldn't be using a human death for political gain AND have ignored 4 murdered Americans getting killed cause it was inconvenient for them, would they? :doodoo:
 
Yes 11C1P, it was covered up because it did not serve those in charge. Clearly the odd collateral loss is part of operating at that level and the risks are known to those who choose to operate at that level.

As I said, who benefits from the current response, because someone is instructing the msm to crank it up .........
 
I would expect the Dems to be banging a drum because it is in line with their political objectives. What has puzzled me is the reaction from the neoconservatives that have been rabid to promote the KSA's agenda in the middle east since Iraq (trying to get the USA to invade Iran and Syria).

I can only surmise that Khashoggi might have been a CIA asset. He did have relationships with people of interest to US intelligence (Osama Bin Laden in the past, Saudi royal family and Saudi intelligence honcho in the present [more or less]). Khashoggi also lived in Virginia - not too far from Langley I would guess.
 
It ocurred to me that claiming that Kashoggi left the embassy 'alive' is possibly not too big a stretch

his heart still beating and brain synapses still firing ........ ok not necessarily in the same bag .........

Looking like the full story is going to come out, I guess those Saudi's have never really bothered to create cover stories so they are a bit amateurish, not what we would expect from a CIA/ MI6 operation that got exposed.

Perhaps they will in future send more of their operators to Langley for expert tuition ?
Its all good business and creates more jobs after all :rotflmbo:
 
Between this and the migrant flood, I think we're looking at inside baseball of some sort. We were never supposed to know about this nobody guy Kashoggi in the first place. This shit was purposely leaked by the Turks, who have no special love for us any more. Two weeks ago, not one soul knew who this guy was. Even today, they have no idea who he is/was except that he lived somewhere in the states and was killed by Saudis, supposedly butchered alive, although that is not corroborated.

This whole thing smells, just like the caravan of illegals does. Where exactly are ten thousand people getting food, water and clothes? Where do they go to the toilet? None of them look like they have been missing any meals either. The people we should be letting in are the Venezuelans who we know for damn sure will never vote Dem or socialist again.
 
Turkey keeps releasing facts from their investigative efforts. Saudi Arabian prosecutors now admit his murder was premeditated. Saudis are forced to revoke their travel ban and let Khashoggi's son and family leave Saudi Arabia. Will Americans (and the world) really let the Crown Prince off the hook for this? It's only a matter of time before hard evidence is secured that he ordered the hit - confirming what everyone in the world already knows.
 
Not directly related to Khashoggi or the USA, but likely to ratchet up the pressure on the situation...

Saudi journalist and writer Turki Bin Abdul Aziz Al-Jasser has died after being tortured while in detention, the New Khaleej reported yesterday.

Reporting human rights sources, the news site said that Al-Jasser was arrested and tortured to death after Saudi authorities claimed he administered the Twitter account Kashkool, which disclosed rights violations committed by the Saudi authorities and royal family.

The sources said that the authorities identified Al-Jasser as the admin using spies in Twitter’s regional office located in Dubai. He was arrested in March.
...

More: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181105-saudi-journalist-tortured-to-death-in-prison/
 
Canadian intelligence has heard an audio recording of the killing of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has confirmed.

"Canada has been fully briefed up on what Turkey had to share," he said.

Mr Trudeau is the first Western leader to confirm his country has listened to the purported tape of the murder at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

Turkey's president said on Saturday that he had given copies to the US, UK, Germany, France and Saudi Arabia.
...

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-46183630
 
U.S. national security adviser John Bolton said Tuesday that an audio recording of journalist Jamal Khashoggi's death inside an Istanbul consulate did not appear to provide any link between the killers and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

Bolton, speaking on the sidelines of a regional summit in Singapore, said that while he had not listened to the tape himself, "those who have listened to it" concluded that Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler is not implicated.
...

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-bolton-khashoggi-killing-20181113-story.html

Trump admin/USA is still trying to give the Crown Prince cover.
 
Last edited:
A foreigner killed in a foreign embassy? What difference does it make? :doodoo: #13Hours!
 
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, a bipartisan group of senior US senators have alleged after the CIA director gave them a classified briefing on the grisly murder inside the Gulf kingdom's diplomatic mission shocked the world.
...
The clear and unusually biting assessment put Republican senators at odds with the White House, which has steadfastly refused to cast blame on Saudi Arabia's leadership for the grisly death of Khashoggi, a Washington Post columnist, the New York Times reported.
...
Yet lawmakers remained divided over what steps to take next, after a stinging vote last week to consider a measure cutting off American military aid to Saudi Arabia's bombing campaign, the Times said.
...
Indeed, after Haspel's briefing, the groundswell of certainty and disgust will likely complicate the Trump administration's efforts to protect the prince and its relationship with Saudi Arabia, even as lawmakers have yet to coalesce around a legislative response, CNN reported.

Among the options: pull back from US involvement in the Saudi-led war in Yemen; deny any arms sales with Saudi Arabia; slap the crown prince with sanctions, along with a resolution saying the Senate finds him complicit in murder, it said.

How the legislative push gets resolved is uncertain, but the floor fight could begin as soon as Monday -- and put the Trump administration on the defensive, the network commented.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...i-princes-complicity/articleshow/66954748.cms
 
curious that on this occasion it feels like a degree of truthfulness comes from the see eye ay ........

What makes this incident ( cos its not a biggie in the world of control ) so different that this response is generated ?
 
I've been pondering that same question for a while now. I can only guess that MBS isn't playing ball with the right people or he was complicit in something more egregious than just Khashoggi's murder.
 
Looks like world leaders caved (so far?) and MBS gets away with his power play.

A court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced five people to death and jailed three others over the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi last year.

Khashoggi, a prominent critic of the Saudi government, was killed inside the kingdom's consulate in the Turkish city of Istanbul by a team of Saudi agents.

The Saudi authorities said it was the result of a "rogue operation" and put 11 unnamed individuals on trial.

A UN expert said the trial represented "the antithesis of justice".

"Bottom line: the hit-men are guilty, sentenced to death. The masterminds not only walk free. They have barely been touched by the investigation and the trial," Special Rapporteur Agnes Callamard wrote on Twitter.

A report released by Ms Callamard concluded in June that Khashoggi's death was an "extrajudicial execution" for which the Saudi state was responsible, and that there was credible evidence warranting further investigation that high-level officials, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, were individually liable.
...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50890633
 
MBS making another power play - not just in domestic politics, but in the oil markets too...
In a fresh episode of Saudi palace intrigue, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has detained three members of the royal family, including a brother of the king and a former crown prince who had been potential obstacles to his power.

The detentions were the latest demonstration of the crown prince’s willingness to take extraordinary measures to quash any perceived rival.
...
The detentions come at a time when fears about the impact of the coronavirus have slashed the price of oil, the main source of the kingdom’s revenue, and the crown prince’s celebrated plans to diversify the Saudi economy have fallen behind his promises.

The detentions were not announced by the Saudi government, and it remains unclear what prompted them. An official at the Saudi embassy in Washington declined to comment.
...
The crown prince, who acts as the kingdom’s de facto ruler on behalf of his ageing father, King Salman, has recently faced grumbling within the kingdom and the broader Muslim world over his unilateral decision to halt visits to Mecca in response to the coronavirus — a move with few, if any, precedents in Islamic history. Conservatives griped that even as he halted pilgrimages, modern entertainment venues the crown prince brought into the kingdom, like movie theatres, remained open.

One possible motive for the detentions may have to do with the ageing of Prince Mohammed’s father, King Salman, 84. The crown prince could be seeking to lock down potential challengers to his own succession before his father dies or abdicates the throne.
...

https://www.telegraphindia.com/world/mbs-detains-senior-members-of-family/cid/1751924

Saudi Arabia plans to boost oil output next month to well above 10 million barrels a day, as the kingdom responds aggressively to the collapse of its OPEC+ alliance with Russia.

The world’s largest oil exporter engaged in an all-out price war on Saturday by slashing pricing for its crude by the most in more than 30 years. State energy giant Saudi Aramco is offering unprecedented discounts in Asia, Europe and the U.S. to entice refiners to use Saudi crude.

At the same time, Saudi Arabia has privately told some market participants it could raise production much higher if needed, even going to a record 12 million barrels a day, according to people familiar with the conversations, who asked not to be named to protect commercial relations. With demand ravaged by the coronavirus outbreak, opening the taps would throw the oil market into chaos.
...
Aramco’s unprecedented pricing move came just hours after the talks between the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and its allies ended in dramatic failure. The breakup of the alliance effectively ends the cooperation between Saudi Arabia and Russia that has underpinned oil prices since 2016. Production limits agreed to by OPEC and its erstwhile partners expire at the end of the month, opening the way for producers to ramp up output.
...
The shock-and-awe Saudi strategy could be an attempt to impose maximum pain in the quickest possible way to Russia and other producers, in an effort to bring them back to the negotiating table, and then quickly reverse the production surge and start cutting output if a deal is achieved. In a sign that both sides remain in talks, the OPEC+ Joint Technical Committee, a body of senior oil officials who advise ministers, plans to meet on March 18 to review the global oil market, according to delegates. Saudi and Russian officials are part of the JTC.
...
The production increase and deep discounts mark a dramatic escalation by Prince Abdulaziz bin Salman, the Saudi oil minister, after his Russian counterpart Alexander Novak rejected an ultimatum on Friday in Vienna at the OPEC+ meeting to join in a collective production cut. After the talks collapsed, Novak said countries were free to pump-at-will from the end of March.
...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...hike-beginning-all-out-price-war?srnd=premium
 
Saudi Arabia on Sunday announced the detention of hundreds of government officials, including military and security officers, on charges involving bribery and exploiting public office, and said investigators would bring charges against them.
...
An anti-corruption body known as Nazaha tweeted on Sunday that it had arrested and would indict 298 people on crimes such as bribery, embezzlement, and abuse of power involving a total of 379 million riyals ($101 million).

Among those implicated are eight defense ministry officers suspected of bribery and money laundering in relation to government contracts during the years 2005-2015, and 29 interior ministry officials in the Eastern Province, including three colonels, a major general and a brigadier general.

Two judges were also detained for receiving bribes, along with nine officials accused of corruption at Riyadh’s AlMaarefa University which resulted in severe damage to a building and caused deaths and injuries, Nazaha said.

The agency provided no names and few other details about the cases.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...icials-in-new-corruption-probes-idUSKBN21212I
 
Russian President Vladimir Putin will refuse to submit to what the Kremlin sees as oil blackmail from Saudi Arabia, signaling the price war that’s roiling global energy markets will continue.

The unprecedented clash between the two giant exporters -- and former OPEC+ allies -- threatens to push the price of a barrel below $20, but Moscow won’t be the first to blink and seek a truce, said people familiar with the government’s position.
...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...een-as-saudi-oil-price-blackmail?srnd=premium

Not sure why anyone expects Putin to blink. This is exactly what he wanted in the first place.
 
Saudi Arabia and Russia (and so called OPEC+) continue their price war. Oil is under $20.

Meanwhile, demand for oil has crashed because of Covid19 paralysis. Word I'm hearing from peeps working in the refining industry is that (domestic USA) refineries are going to start shutting down and either furloughing or firing employees. The problem is that their storage tanks are reaching full capacity. They can't make more product because they don't have any place to put the stuff.
 
Even without the Russia / Saudi price war this would have happened.
World demand down 20% so far and no one knows when there will be any pickup . I cant imagine any agreed production cuts making any difference.

So did Putin mis read the effect of Covid19 or was he ready for where we are now.

There has to be significant shut-in / shutdown of the marginal producers and often these wells become un economical to re open.
I guess you can print your way to paying lost wages but there has to be demand to support the industry in the longer term.


I
 
* bump *

The Biden administration has told a US court that Mohammed bin Salman should be granted sovereign immunity in a civil case involving the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, effectively ending a last ditch attempt to hold the Saudi crown prince legally accountable for the 2018 killing.

In a filing released on late on Thursday night, the Biden administration said the crown prince’s recent promotion to the role of prime minister meant that he was “the sitting head of government and, accordingly, immune” from the lawsuit.
...
The Biden administration’s decision – which in effect will extinguish Cengiz’s last hope for justice – will likely be met with intense criticism by Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill, who have pressed the administration to take a tougher stance against its Middle East partner. One lawyer close to the matter said the decision was “disastrous for accountability, for human rights, for impunity”.

The legal decision also makes clear that US president Joe Biden has fully abandoned a campaign promise to hold Prince Mohammed accountable for Khashoggi’s murder.

It raises questions about Biden’s public remarks last month, in which he said Saudi Arabia would face “consequences” for leading an Opec+ decision to cut oil production, a move that was seen by the US administration as siding with Russia over the interests of American allies.

People familiar with the matter said the decision was reached after a “big debate” at the top levels of the White House, with some senior US officials arguing that it would be difficult to defend the Biden administration’s claim that human rights are at the centre of its foreign policy while simultaneously allowing “MBS”, as the crown prince is known, to skirt accountability for his alleged role in the murder.
...
The question over whether the prince was indeed a sovereign got more complicated in September when King Salman declared that Prince Mohammed would be elevated to the position of prime minister. The decision, which was made public just days before the US government was due to weigh in on the Cengiz case, was seen by human rights defenders as a ploy to avoid accountability for the Khashoggi killing.

If the civil case is allowed to proceed – which is unlikely – it would allow Cengiz and Dawn to seek a deposition of the crown prince. If Prince Mohammed lost the case, he could be liable for damages.

“It would mean that any time he comes to the US – if he were to be found guilty – they would be able to serve notice and issue a fine. It would be humiliating and would effectively mean he could not travel to the US again,” said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA analyst and fellow at Brookings.

It is unlikely any of this will now come to pass.

“The pariah is now above the law,” Riedel said.


The petrodollar says the USA must be KSA's bitch.
 
The petrodollar says the USA must be KSA's bitch.
If our "leaders" since at least the end of WW2 had run our nation correctly, there never would have been a need to create the petrodollar deal with SA to begin with.

The only reason it came to be, is due to our gov's fiscal immaturity.
 
The whole thing sounds like a breakfast cereal:

Try new Kellog's Kashoggi Flakes made with 100% bran and marshmellows.
 
  • AMERICAN NEWS
  • Nov 22, 2022

Saudi Arabia blasts anonymous report that they are boosting oil production after MBS immunity deal​

"The current cut of 2 million barrels per day by OPEC+ continues until the end of 2023 and, if there is need to take further measures by reducing production to balance supply and demand, we always remain ready to intervene," the energy minister said.
ADVERTISEMENT
Saudi Arabia blasts anonymous report that they are boosting oil production after MBS immunity deal


A report issued by the Wall Street Journal, stating that Saudi Arabia is considering a boost in their oil production after the Biden administration came out in support of newly appointed Prime Minister Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's immunity against culpability in the murder of journalist Jamal Kashoggi, has been refuted by the Saudis.

Saudi Arabia, which in the lead-up to the US midterm elections refused to comply with the Biden administration's ask for an increase in their oil supply, instead declaring OPEC's intention to cut production, said again that cuts, and not increases, were on the table. The cost of oil rose on Tuesday, in response to this news.

more:
 
Back
Top Bottom