DOGE - USAID et al

Cigarlover said:

Grok has some research to do. LOL. 1st, what is income according to the Supreme Court?
Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920) income is a profit or gain seperate from capital

2nd what does the word derived mean? To obtain or receive from a source.

So, every person legally in the US has the right to work. That's a fundamental right for which there can be no argument. So, what is capital? Is you labor capital?

Be interesting to see what GROK says. I've never used it.

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Exactly!

However, if you can fool the people into believing they are 'Citizens' of the United States... check this box (it's on every IRS Form W-4) when in reality they're residents of the State/territory they live in, you can fool them into 'volunteering' to pay taxes.



GROK: what is capital? Is you labor capital?
Let’s break this down.

Capital, in its simplest economic sense, refers to the resources or assets used to produce goods and services. Think of it as the tools, machinery, buildings, or money that businesses use to get things done. It’s one of the core "factors of production," alongside labor and land. For example, a factory’s equipment is capital, or the cash a company invests to buy raw materials is capital. It’s stuff that helps create wealth, not the wealth itself.

Now, is your labor capital? No, not quite. Labor is distinct from capital—it’s the human effort, physical or mental, that you put into producing something. You swinging a hammer or writing code is labor. The hammer or the computer you use? That’s capital. Economists usually separate the two because labor comes from people, while capital is the non-human stuff people use to make their work more effective. That said, there’s a concept called "human capital," which muddies the waters a bit—it’s the skills, knowledge, and experience you bring to the table, treated like an asset. But in the classic sense, your raw labor isn’t capital; it’s a different ingredient in the production recipe.

Does that clear it up? Want to dig deeper into any part of it?

Mark this date on your cal. March 4th 2025... The Great Revealing....

Trump announced he will be addressing joint congress. Every member of congress is told their presence is MANDATORY.

Every network must carry the address LIVE.

IMHO, this will be a date forever noted in history as the Great Revealing.

He will lay bare all of the national disgraces and secrets hidden from US, the rightful owners of this great nation.

Godspeed Mr. President, Godspeed.

Voodoo said:

I'm advocating for NO income tax. There is no acceptable amount. You are no more a serf or slave if you must hand someone else any portion of your hard work.

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Is a sales tax any more just? Or a real-estate tax, or even a tax on assets/wealth?

The wonderful sales tax scheme, pushed so hard by kids a decade ago, could easily be morphed into a Value-Added-Tax - a sales tax on crack, taxing wealth creation at every step. Canada has that, and since its imposition, the income of the average Canadian, in constant currency, has been halved.

There were many other factors, but the VAT did nothing but speed it along.

First, we have to have a consensus on what government should be doing; and then, how to pay for it. And to prevent the Stealth Taxation of inflation, we need to have hard money.

AND we need to DESTROY the sinecured Political Leadership Class. TERM LIMITS - in the Constitution.

That removes the incentive to buy a client voter faction, and thus spend money on them. It also prevents lifers from concocting schemes like USAID. There would be no incentive, if all officeholders were temporarily serving their country.

That cuts huge costs out of government. Removing constitutional standing of the Regulatory State is more savings.

The REST...I would posit, could be paid with a Flat Tax.

WITHOUT withholding. You get your 1099 at the end of the year; the same data is sent to the IRS, you get a bill and you pay it.

Hard? Yup...planning ahead is work. This would TEACH young people right out of school, the need to budget and save for future costs.

Those who do not, can be punished. I expect few would have to be, after the first couple years.

But, the reality is, there must be a tax. There always has been taxes or tributes; we can control what they're spent on, who they're given to, but not that they must be paid. It's the price of civilization. Even living outside any sort of government, you will be reduced to hiring an army or paying off one to not raid you and maybe protect you.

Voodoo said:

I'm advocating for NO income tax.

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Ok. I'm with ya on that.

Voodoo said:

There is no acceptable amount. You are no more a serf or slave if you must hand someone else any portion of your hard work.

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There has to be some amount. If we're going to have a government of any kind at all, it has to be paid for somehow.

Even if it were to literally do nothing other than pave the roads, asphalt still costs money.
.....and if The People want the gov to do something, they should be the ones to pay for it. Preferably via direct taxation.

Imagine a World where anytime your representatives ie:agents, wanted to do something, they had to request the money from you directly and clearly explain to you what the money is for and why they believe it would be in the nation's best interest to do whatever it is they are trying to do.

Each person gets a bill for the same amount. Ie: divide the cost of the new law by the number of people, and send every mofo a bill. If enough people agree, they'll send the money and it'll get funded.

If not, that legislation won't get done, and if they force it and over spend anyways, they might end up with angry pitchfork-carrying mobs outside their office doors.

It's the only way to maintain a small central gov with limited powers.

Only reason we have a big bloated gov is because there are a million and one revenue streams (taxes) that cause everything we buy to be more expensive due to fact that the corps and the rich can usually pass their costs of doing business to the end user of their products and services. Ie: you and I

Doing it that way hides the true cost of government from the ones paying for it, and no one really knows exactly how much government services cost.
....and if we don't know what it actually costs us, how can we ever know if we are over paying, or possibly getting a good deal?
....and I'll agree it's prolly not the latter. Lol

Goldhedge said:

However, if you can fool the people into believing they are 'Citizens' of the United States... check this box (it's on every IRS Form W-4) when in reality they're residents of the State/territory they live in, you can fool them into 'volunteering' to pay taxes.

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The volunteering came upon acceptance and use of a federal ID. That act placed you under the jurisdiction thereof.

Try filing a return with your US gov ID # missing. It won't be accepted, as it does not appear to be from someone liable for it. Gotta have that # to even start creating liability.

Joe King said:

The volunteering came upon acceptance and use of a federal ID. That act placed you under the jurisdiction thereof.

Try filing a return with your US gov ID # missing. It won't be accepted, as it does not appear to be from someone liable for it. Gotta have that # to even start creating liability.

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Not true WRT income taxation. Look at what is allowed to be taxed under the Constitution. The Supreme Court even wrote that the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation.

Goldhedge said:

However, if you can fool the people into believing they are 'Citizens' of the United States... check this box (it's on every IRS Form W-4) when in reality they're residents of the State/territory they live in, you can fool them into 'volunteering' to pay taxes.

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This is the crux of the matter. You are signing 1040’s under penalties of perjury that you are subject to the tax. But most Americans aren’t. It mostly those that live in Washington D.C. or have business with the Federal government that need to file. It is in the IRS Code.

The best book on this subject is Peter Hendrickson book: “Cracking the Code”

Viking said:

Not true WRT income taxation. Look at what is allowed to be taxed under the Constitution. The Supreme Court even wrote that the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation.

This is the crux of the matter. You are signing 1040’s under penalties of perjury that you are subject to the tax. But most Americans aren’t. It mostly those that live in Washington D.C. or have business with the Federal government that need to file. It is in the IRS Code.

The best book on this subject is Peter Hendrickson book: “Cracking the Code”

Hendrickson - Cracking the Code - The Fascinating Truth About Taxation in America (2003).pdf (PDFy mirror) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

This public document was automatically mirrored from PDFy.Original filename: Hendrickson - Cracking the Code - The Fascinating Truth About Taxation in America...

archive.org

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I think the best book on the subject is Dave Champ[ions "Income tax shattering the myths" I have Petes as well and he gets a lot right but as Dave has pointed out in the past, he also gets stuff wrong.

1040's and w-4's are for non resident aliens, not US citizens.

Cigarlover said:

I think the best book on the subject is Dave Champ[ions "Income tax shattering the myths" I have Petes as well and he gets a lot right but as Dave has pointed out in the past, he also gets stuff wrong.

1040's and w-4's are for non resident aliens, not US citizens.

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I’m familiar with Dave Champion. He is wrong that 1040’s are not for US citizens.

Viking said:

I’m familiar with Dave Champion. He is wrong that 1040’s are not for US citizens.

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Here's his evidence. 10 treasury decisions. I would like to see the evidence disputing that.

If you guys want to start an IRS Taxation Is Theft thread go for it!

LOL

Musk seems to have taken to heart, the Tech Boys' motto: "Move fast, and break things."

But he can break DOGE, if he comes too hard up on Civil Service protections. AND he can lose goodwill, when the (necessary) terminations start to appear capricious. That sort of thing isn't done even in non-union private employment.