swung by the bullet store - ammo availability

[ancona]

Here in FL, there is really not much available in quantity. 9mm can be had with limitations, .22 is tough to find and expensive when you do, although I bought a thousand rounds for the 'ol pile for 35 per 500 rd./box.

5.56 and .223 are tough to get, and most retailers are at or near a buck a round, which I fucking refuse to be extorted out of. My retail re-loader, who I will not name here because I don't want to see a run on his stock, will give me 5.56 and .223 for 32 cents a round if I keep recycling my various and sundry brass through him. He tells me that powder and primers are a bitch to get in any quantity and that brass is even harder.

I still go to the range and do the brass crab thing, crawling around looking for discarded brass, but the pickings are thinner than usual with everyone hoarding their ammo these days. I am down to three five gallon buckets of un-sorted brass, so I too will be slowing down a bit. Things are very, very slowly stabilizing, but they are far from back to normal here in FL.

 

[Jay]

.22 was 40 dollars a brick in Cloudcroft. My friend posted on Gunbroker that HIS friend said there was plenty of ammo in NM, and so he asked his mom to stop in gun shops on the way as she was driving there. (I'm in Central Texas). She said no ammo in any shop she stopped at all the way to Ruidosa, that I was full of crap. (?) Maybe we just got lucky....

 

[pmbug]

$40/brick? Damn. I remember buying it not too long ago at $20/brick.

 

[dontdeBasemebro]

$40/brick? Damn. I remember buying it not too long ago at $20/brick.

I wish I could even seeing .22 on the shelves.

12ga is still around though, so I've been busting clays mostly.

 

[Jay]

every time I went by Wally world in the pre-freakout days I bought a couple of boxes of .22 at the old 16 dollar price, so I'm good till the rapture (I think Ancona said that). But WHY is 22 so expensive. Even though they called it a tactical caliber on the news tonight, and every cop in the US has an AK-47, also according to the news, its not and they don't. My friend had a box of what I call CB caps (.22 shorts?) for 10 dollars at the gun show, and I didn't buy them (100 rounds). Now I wish I had.

IT WAS THE F$%#ING POLICE CHIEF WHO CALLED .22 A TACTICAL CALIBER AND A PASSERBY WHO SAID EVERY COP ON THE SCENE (THE FLA "TERRORIST" COLLEGE ATTACK) HAD AN AK-47. WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS LEO SPOUTING? /rant off.

 

[pmbug]

...
IT WAS THE F$%#ING POLICE CHIEF WHO CALLED .22 A TACTICAL CALIBER AND A PASSERBY WHO SAID EVERY COP ON THE SCENE (THE FLA "TERRORIST" COLLEGE ATTACK) HAD AN AK-47. WHAT KIND OF BULLSHIT IS LEO SPOUTING? /rant off.

 

[DCFusor]

.22 is expensive because:
A. Everyone wants it
B: No one can reload it.

Hence, no competition to hold prices down. Costs me less to shoot real centerfire than that, since I recycle both brass and lead. .22 is still a nice round for what I actually need a gun for around the farmstead, but you don't actually use much for that "business" - just the odd varmint.

 

[ancona]

Although I have the devils share of .22, you can never have enough in my opinion. Once you get started at the range, going through a box of 500 with me and three friends and Little Ancona does not take very long.

I agree with the Fusor here in that .22 is not re-loadable so it must be manufactured new every time, but center fire can be reloaded a bunch of times before it becomes scrap metal.

Things are stabilizing here but not really loosening up much. I think there may actually be something to the accusations leveled against those with majority positions in these industries, and that there may be some pressure from Dear Leader and his idiot minions to hold back production and create a false sense of shortage.

 

[DCFusor]

What my pro ammo maker friend tells me is it's just demand. I asked if they'd been told anything - but both private and *public* (militarizing the cops) demand are just really high. EG, their volumes are NOT down, but way up, and they are hiring and doing capex to get more ammo assembly going on - and they are in CA of all places.

I myself have been slacking on that - I have thousands of rounds worth o parts I have to make back into ammo, but the new GF (you heard it here first) is going to love running the Dillon, I think. That cha-ching sound for each round gets 'em every time.

 

[Jay]

local hardware store has .308, 30.06 and all handgun cals at prefreakout prices. No 22. Forgot to look if they had any .223 (I'm not buying ammo, so I really don't care) This on SHTF in Houston:

 

[rblong2us]

Ammunition Is Getting Scarce ..........

This morning I lucked out and was able to buy several cases of ammo.

On the way home I stopped at the gas station where a drop-dead gorgeous blonde was filling up her car at the next pump.

She looked at the ammo in the back of my Suburban and said in a very sexy voice, "I'm a big believer in barter, big boy".

"Would you be interested in trading sex for ammo?"

I thought a few seconds and asked, "what kinda ammo ya got?"

 

[DoChenRollingBearing]

...

Here's a fun guns & ammo website run by robots:

gunbot.net

Happy hunting!

EDIT:

They should do one for these for gold coins and other things where there is scarcity yet a lot of suppliers.

goldbot.net
bearingbot.net
Etc...

 

[pmbug]

That looks a lot like http://ammoseek.com/

 

[Jay]

went to the local gun show this morning to drool over the 30-30's I have been coveting the last two years (they had plenty. 350-550 range). Didn't buy anything but a brick of winchester .22lr was 85$, a 50 round box 8$. Almost no ammo there this time and not so many guns. Forgot to look at prices since I was focused on one thing. My kids said there was a whole lot of silver there, but I didn't notice it.

 

[MasterQ]

That's better than my gun show.

Boxes of 50 were going for $10!

Crazy crazy crap.

-Q

 

[pmbug]

I was browsing through the latest CTD catalogue (they mail me one every month) and noticed that they didn't list any prices for ammo or gun parts. This is the first time I've seen that. They normally list their prices. I guess the prices for ammo and parts are too volatile to commit a price for a month.

 

[Jay]

I was browsing through the latest CTD catalogue (they mail me one every month) and noticed that they didn't list any prices for ammo or gun parts. This is the first time I've seen that. They normally list their prices. I guess the prices for ammo and parts are too volatile to commit a price for a month.

yeah, I noticed that. For some reason, CTD has decided to send me a catalog every month, even though I don't buy anything from them. I did buy a tactical light from them about three years ago. The pharmacist at the grocery store I work for came up to me yesterday and said "my friend was looking for "bullets" for his gun and had to drive all the way to Austin to find them, and then only one store had them for .50 cents each and he could only buy one box". I suppose he was talking about .22 but he was REALLY shocked. I don't think that most folks are paying any attention.

 

[DCFusor]

Interestingly, the price of reloading tools hasn't really gone up much at all...
A minimal set is really cheap - you don't have to go all out as I did.

I think I might do a thread (with video) here or on my board (and link back here of course) on how-to. People like us, who like to be prepared, should be into this and taking note of conditions. Besides, it's fun to do - and to shoot ammo you know is tuned for *your* gun(s). While primers and such are a little scarce right now, they're not impossible to get, nor is propellant. Save your brass...if you don't want it, someone else will pay you for it if it's in decent condition.

Heck, I even cast my own handgun bullets, it's not hard, and it's something to do with all the lead my target backstops fill up with. I do some rifle bullet casting as well, but you don't get the performance there, even with specialized alloys for that - jacketed is the way to go for effectiveness, though plain hard alloy lead works out fine for plinking - you just get (much) lower velocities if you want anything like decent accuracy (which means you use less powder too).

Primers are the thing that's hardest to make yourself...they're worth having a stash of in the various types (small and large pistol and rifle, magnum and non, mostly non). So if you see boxes of 1000 - it's not a bad thing to get and have on hand, even if you only know someone else who loads (ask them what they usually use most of, they'll be grateful if you find them some, usually).

It would be far easier and more effective a ploy for the gov to shut down ammo availability than guns. Ammo gets used up - guns don't and there are a heck of a lot of them in existence already, just waiting for a boat accident should that seem wise.

 

[DoChenRollingBearing]

My LGS (Gun) sold me 100 rounds of Fiocchi 7.62 x 39 (Hungarian-made, lead bullet w/ copper, brass case) for $101.00 (included sales tax) last Friday. I saw that they had more, but 100 rounds was all they would sell me.

 

[DCFusor]

A buck each for 7.62x39? Wow, who'da thunk that? That's about the most common and cheapest round out there! Or, used to be. Someone's stacking profits.

When I load benchrest grade .223, it works out like this:
less than .50 for a brass - which I use many times over.
3c for a primer (used to be 2)
25 or so grains of powder (there are 7k grains per $25 pound, now that's about $30, so call that 10c)
and, about 20c for the bullet if it's a true benchrest grade sierra matchking (I use 53 grain flatbase for short ranges, and nosler 77 gr for long range in .223, both moly coated - barrel stays clean longer that way and wears less).

Note, I don't use my 1/4 moa AR in competition except to prove it can be done. I have a cooper in bolt action single shot that is just like a laser, it's easier to win with that. Most of the accuracy difference in tests is the autoloading - it bends the rounds a little getting picked out of the mag and slammed into the chamber - single loading it, the accuracy improves a lot.

So, let's assume that I use brass about 10 times (which is about right for me, I get maybe 25 or more in .38 and other low pressure handgun rounds - primer pocket wears out which is the limit there). So the real cost of the brass is 5c. So, adding it all up, 5+3+10+20 = 38 cents a round, and that's for the very best - shoots all into the same small hole at 300 yds. If you're willing to accept say 1 moa (1" at 100 yds) then maybe about 20c a round. And that's retail prices for the parts. If I buy bulk, like Dianne Bishop (pro ammo maker in CA), it's half that. And of course, you can cast your own bullets if you have a mind to, but in rifles, they don't work all that well above about 1800-2200fps, which is on the wimpy side for a rifle. The larger calibers work better with lead alloy (linotype). In .223, you can almost not load them hot enough to make the action of an AR work right before they just go crazy inaccurate due to melting from friction as they go down the barrel.

Now, if you go to midway, you can get real decent but not my version of perfect .223 projectiles for way less than half that price - the good stuff you pay for, even in bulk, mostly for the quality control involved. Prairie dog bullets are under 10c each. And there's cheaper powder than I use for competition also out there - helps to buy in bulk. But I use what I use in competition because it burns very clean and I don't have to fool with cleaning during a match.

What has also helped me, being kind of the neighbourhood gun guy, is that when estates go (someone dies) whoever inherits reloading supplies just gives them to me.
So I have dies for calibers I don't have guns for, literally 100's of lbs of powder I paid zero for, brass and bullets and primers the same. But for real serious work, I use pretty new and state of the art stuff I do pay for, since all in all - it costs less than the trip to the competition, a lot less, and why try to win with second best stuff?

Of course, there's also labor involved. My brass especially goes through quite a prep process - I ream the primer pocket flat, debur the flash hole, and turn the necks to perfect uniformity of wall thickness. Then I sort by weight and only use matching weights for a batch for competition. Anything that doesn't come out of the dies with less than 1 mil total indicated runout gets used up in a fun gun like my carbon-15 .223 pistol, that isn't accurate anyway. Turns out for ARs, straightness matters more than anything else for accuracy, as I found out with a heck of a lot of testing. If the bullet doesn't start straight, it won't fly straight - the pressure will bend it to fit the bore...crooked or not. But I only do all that for "serious work", not for just having some fun on the range. Knowing you have 15 minutes of work in each round makes you aim more carefully, since you know any error is now your fault as a shooter.

 

[DoChenRollingBearing]

Russian ammo you can get for $0.30 or so and up. LOTS of it around.

gunbot.net has lots of Russian suppliers of Wolf and Bear crap at low prices. Availability of better stuff (Fiocchi, Korean PMC, American 7.62 * 39, etc. is not good, all "quality" ammo is a buck or more per round).

And I have some Russian (steel bullets, the LGS guy told me, are "armor-piercing", go right through cinder blocks he told me, but I declined to ask for the exact details of what "going right through a cinder block" exactly meant...)

 

[Jay]

Russian ammo you can get for $0.30 or so and up. LOTS of it around.

gunbot.net has lots of Russian suppliers of Wolf and Bear crap at low prices. Availability of better stuff (Fiocchi, Korean PMC, American 7.62 * 39, etc. is not good, all "quality" ammo is a buck or more per round).

And I have some Russian (steel bullets, the LGS guy told me, are "armor-piercing", go right through cinder blocks he told me, but I declined to ask for the exact details of what "going right through a cinder block" exactly meant...)

CASES of Tula at our local hardware store. I didn't bother to look at the price, but yeah its out there...

 

[DCFusor]

I wouldn't touch that Russian stuff - steel case, glue, dirty burn, for my own gun. Might be useful for barter at some point, but that's it.
At a recent machine gun shoot at our club, the only gun that consistently jammed or failed to fire was an otherwise very good and reliable tommy gun in .45 acp. This guy just couldn't get it to consistently work right, and it's one reliable design, very popular for example in WWII and prohibition before that.

Another expert walks over to the guy, looks at his Wolf ammo, declares that's his problem, gives him a few boxes of cheap/generic but American stuff - and no further problems. Nuff said.

Most military ammo has a copper gilded steel jacket. Some also contain a carbide armor piercing piece (like the green tip .223 milsurp). This is obvious with a magnet.
Both types are hell on barrels - they wear about 3x as fast with that as with civvie projectiles and I only use them when I want fast wear to "shoot in" a new barrel, since 60 or so shots of that is about the same smoothing of the tool marks as a couple hundred rounds of "good stuff". The military has no reason to care, the gun you wear out fast isn't the expensive part, and probably fails for some other reason first. Believe me, if you wear out your gun and live to tell the tale, they're real happy to give you a new one - you are the expensive part...

Just about any centerfire rifle round will easily go through the two webs of a cinderblock. They are so brittle it doesn't really matter what the projectile is - could be a light plastic tipped varmint bullet and it'll still shatter the thing. Doesn't prove much. A real round, like say a .308, will explode a block at 400 yds - tried it. But those are getting legitimately expensive to shoot - there just more of everything in a round. And for a lightweight like me, the recoil, even in a heavy gun, is a bit much to fire all day from a bench - in that case you are sort of leaning into the gun and it hits back pretty hard, compared to standing offhand.

 

[Jay]

I wouldn't touch that Russian stuff - steel case, glue, dirty burn, for my own gun. Might be useful for barter at some point, but that's it.
At a recent machine gun shoot at our club, the only gun that consistently jammed or failed to fire was an otherwise very good and reliable tommy gun in .45 acp. This guy just couldn't get it to consistently work right, and it's one reliable design, very popular for example in WWII and prohibition before that.

Another expert walks over to the guy, looks at his Wolf ammo, declares that's his problem, gives him a few boxes of cheap/generic but American stuff - and no further problems. Nuff said.

Most military ammo has a copper gilded steel jacket. Some also contain a carbide armor piercing piece (like the green tip .223 milsurp). This is obvious with a magnet.
Both types are hell on barrels - they wear about 3x as fast with that as with civvie projectiles and I only use them when I want fast wear to "shoot in" a new barrel, since 60 or so shots of that is about the same smoothing of the tool marks as a couple hundred rounds of "good stuff". The military has no reason to care, the gun you wear out fast isn't the expensive part, and probably fails for some other reason first. Believe me, if you wear out your gun and live to tell the tale, they're real happy to give you a new one - you are the expensive part...

Just about any centerfire rifle round will easily go through the two webs of a cinderblock. They are so brittle it doesn't really matter what the projectile is - could be a light plastic tipped varmint bullet and it'll still shatter the thing. Doesn't prove much. A real round, like say a .308, will explode a block at 400 yds - tried it. But those are getting legitimately expensive to shoot - there just more of everything in a round. And for a lightweight like me, the recoil, even in a heavy gun, is a bit much to fire all day from a bench - in that case you are sort of leaning into the gun and it hits back pretty hard, compared to standing offhand.

My .306 is heavy, and barely has a kick. But I'd hate to haul it around all day. My 30-06, however, KICKS. I bought a case of cheap crap steel .223 several years ago, I can't remember but maybe I gave 5.00 a box, traded it all at the gun show for brass .223 and .308 at 17 dollars a box. Snicker.

The retired, Filipino, marine sniper up the hill from me, who has a clear shot two miles in any direction from his house, said Russian guns (he was referring to AK's) are loose and it doesn't make any difference the lacquer. Also its cold.

Him and the Blackwater guy a block away I would NOT want to fuck with.

 

[DCFusor]

Yes, this is why SKS are not so accurate (an AK is by-definition full auto and there's a lot of pure bullshit that goes around that one). The chambers are loose, some countries do a better job than others - Czech and so on seem best quality build.
I've had all sorts come here to my range. Some of that eastern stuff is true garbage, the europeans do a lot better build generally. But so far, not one has made me want it. Maybe it's just me, but a 100% reliable AR, as I have just beats it on every level for what I do or might have to do. I like a little more standoff distance than the 7.62x39 will give me a sure effective hit at. And it's rare around here to see one that doesn't jam frequently (often due to ignorant owners and bad ammo, granted, but this is just real life data taken on a range I own).

But the looseness goes away very fast with the propellant Wolf uses - and now it's tight. A sniper may not be an assault weapon expert, it's a very different job, and snipers clean their guns all the time (that whole one-shot, one-kill thing, they don't shoot much unless they suck at it), where you can totally foul an SKS in one clip with Wolf to the point of jamming - I've seen it on my firing range too many times.

The laquer seal helps the ammo be more reliable in the tropics, but it's reliably bad, since it gums up chambers, and gives uneven bullet release tension so the accuracy sucks.

My benchrest 308 is also very heavy, but no muzzle brake (annoys the hell out of the guy next to you to blow his glasses off). I filled the clip with lead, lined the forearm with lead after cutting out some wood to get free-float, and drilled two 1" diameter long holes in the stock, also filled with cast in lead, then made a 3/4" thick stock spacer out of lead to get the length of pull as I desired and make it even heavier.
It's still a bit much to fire 80 times in a row off a bench...and I've replaced it for long distance competition with a homebrew 6.5mm fast twist based off a mauser action I blue printed here at the machine shop, a new jewel trigger, custom stock. It actually has a better BC and accuracy than the .308 "way out there" at half a klick or a klick where we compete, and far less kick even without any lead ballast. It's just a better tradeoff for what I do. You could argue that the .308 is slightly more effective at that range, but you'd get an argument - the 6.5 actually retains velocity better for one thing, and it bucks the wind a *lot* better - what you miss doesn't count as effective. The 6.5mm bullets I shoot are 142 gr and almost 2" long - little rocket ships. I use a 1::7 twist to stabilize those suckers, and a good bit more powder than a .308 normally uses. You could call it a 30-06 necked down, but actually the swede round came first by quite a few years, so it's really that a 30-06 is more like a 6.5 necked up in actuality - and was a response to the german 8mm mauser, since the 30-03 couldn't even come close to keeping up with the 8mm (which is BTW, no fun whatever to shoot in the original gun. Light gun, steel buttplate for your shooting comfort).

Guys, it's not like the ammo makers don't know how - they do. The issue is they have to stick to the lower end of all the SAAMI spec sizes so their stuff fits in anything. The gun makers stick to the other end of the tolerance band for the same reason. Rattle-fit ammo is never accurate, period. This is why I handload - I can make things fit perfectly, and that's worth more than 4::1 accuracy in moa in many guns, all by itself.

If you actually need a gun, sniper style, the worst thing you can do is miss. Ask John Plaster - now everyone for a mile knows about you, have a guess which direction you're in, and are now looking for you. Your next shot is going to raise your insurance premiums quite a bit...because it will nail your position for return fire.
Less is sometimes more. Just depends on the situation.

 

[DoChenRollingBearing]

...

Excellent gun info above, thanks guys for passing along your comments.

I have an "AK-47" (semi-auto), Saiga brand Russian-American. It was the most expensive of the three that they had the LGS 2 - 3 years ago when I bought it ($900 and something). The Yugoslav was $600 and something and the Romanian $500 and something. But, they told me the Saiga was better, and the "finish" was better too. Also, "a guy" at a gun show recommended that I not buy a Romanian...

[FYI: another guy at my LGS told me the Saiga now runs $2900... So, THAT investment has done better than any other I have made over the past 3 years or so]

I have not had a chance to shoot my Tula (Russia) yet (only shoot it outdoors, they (LGS and Range (LGSAR?)) told me the steel bullets ricochet inside...), although all of mags are now loaded up with it, so I need to get out there... And, yes, l I will clean it after shooting the Tula...

One of the reasons I went with the AK rather than an AR is I wanted something that was both:

1) drop-dead simple for me to operate, field-strip and clean

2) would not jam...

My understanding is that most AKs will "eat" almost any 7.62 * 39 round OK, as the thing was designed to be operated by teenage morons (hey, I wanted simple!). I have put about 1000 rounds through it, not a SINGLE problem (unlike my Beretta 9 mm, jammed once on firing the first magazine...).

The AK, of course, is not meant to be accurate, it is for teenage morons by design! I live in a suburban environment with little likelihood that that will change. LGS told me that most urban combat takes place at 100 meters or less... So, the Saiga seemed to be the optimal choice for me.

***

A good friend of mine has an AR, which he likes. The recoil is a bit less that the AK, but I have shot 100 rounds with my AK at one sitting, and was only a little sore. But, my friend's AR has jammed TWICE in just a handful of visits that we have made to the ranges...

***

My "next gun" will likely be a .308. I am still trying to sort out whether the .308 is the same as the NATO round or what. I also want to get a heavy one, so that the recoil is lighter (recall that I am skinny too...).

A friend of mine, Jay, has a cheap POS .30-06! With a cheap scope. He brought it to the range once (article at my blog), and I shot it ten times (sitting / bench rest). The thing kicked like mule, hear ya Jay, LOL...!

When I was talking .308 vs. .30-06, the LGS manager told me that the .30-06 was more power than ANYONE would need (except big game hunters: gators, bears, mountain lions, moose), he also told me that 90% of deer hunters just go with a .308 anyway, it has enough power and accuracy to satisfy almost anyone (certainly enough for me).

***

Further comments welcome!

 

[pmbug]

...
My "next gun" will likely be a .308. I am still trying to sort out whether the .308 is the same as the NATO round or what. ...

Re: Is the 7.62x51 ammo the same as 308 ammo?

No, they're not the same.

First, 7.62x51 Nato rounds are longer than 308 rounds.
Second, 308 rounds are "hotter" than 7.62x51 rounds.

Thus, you can shoot 7.62x51 out of a 308 caliber rifle, but you can experience big problems if you try to shoot a 308 cartridge out of a rifle chambered for 7.62x51.
...

http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=27466.0

...
Further comments welcome!

.308s are fun! But also expensive to shoot. This is my PTR:

 

[Jay]

...
My "next gun" will likely be a .308. I am still trying to sort out whether the .308 is the same as the NATO round or what. ...

do NOT try to shoot NATO through a .308!

 

[Jay]

Yes, this is why SKS are not so accurate (an AK is by-definition full auto and there's a lot of pure bullshit that goes around that one). The chambers are loose, some countries do a better job than others - Czech and so on seem best quality build.
I've had all sorts come here to my range. Some of that eastern stuff is true garbage, the europeans do a lot better build generally. But so far, not one has made me want it. Maybe it's just me, but a 100% reliable AR, as I have just beats it on every level for what I do or might have to do. I like a little more standoff distance than the 7.62x39 will give me a sure effective hit at. And it's rare around here to see one that doesn't jam frequently (often due to ignorant owners and bad ammo, granted, but this is just real life data taken on a range I own).

But the looseness goes away very fast with the propellant Wolf uses - and now it's tight. A sniper may not be an assault weapon expert, it's a very different job, and snipers clean their guns all the time (that whole one-shot, one-kill thing, they don't shoot much unless they suck at it), where you can totally foul an SKS in one clip with Wolf to the point of jamming - I've seen it on my firing range too many times.

The laquer seal helps the ammo be more reliable in the tropics, but it's reliably bad, since it gums up chambers, and gives uneven bullet release tension so the accuracy sucks.

My benchrest 308 is also very heavy, but no muzzle brake (annoys the hell out of the guy next to you to blow his glasses off). I filled the clip with lead, lined the forearm with lead after cutting out some wood to get free-float, and drilled two 1" diameter long holes in the stock, also filled with cast in lead, then made a 3/4" thick stock spacer out of lead to get the length of pull as I desired and make it even heavier.
It's still a bit much to fire 80 times in a row off a bench...and I've replaced it for long distance competition with a homebrew 6.5mm fast twist based off a mauser action I blue printed here at the machine shop, a new jewel trigger, custom stock. It actually has a better BC and accuracy than the .308 "way out there" at half a klick or a klick where we compete, and far less kick even without any lead ballast. It's just a better tradeoff for what I do. You could argue that the .308 is slightly more effective at that range, but you'd get an argument - the 6.5 actually retains velocity better for one thing, and it bucks the wind a *lot* better - what you miss doesn't count as effective. The 6.5mm bullets I shoot are 142 gr and almost 2" long - little rocket ships. I use a 1::7 twist to stabilize those suckers, and a good bit more powder than a .308 normally uses. You could call it a 30-06 necked down, but actually the swede round came first by quite a few years, so it's really that a 30-06 is more like a 6.5 necked up in actuality - and was a response to the german 8mm mauser, since the 30-03 couldn't even come close to keeping up with the 8mm (which is BTW, no fun whatever to shoot in the original gun. Light gun, steel buttplate for your shooting comfort).

Guys, it's not like the ammo makers don't know how - they do. The issue is they have to stick to the lower end of all the SAAMI spec sizes so their stuff fits in anything. The gun makers stick to the other end of the tolerance band for the same reason. Rattle-fit ammo is never accurate, period. This is why I handload - I can make things fit perfectly, and that's worth more than 4::1 accuracy in moa in many guns, all by itself.

If you actually need a gun, sniper style, the worst thing you can do is miss. Ask John Plaster - now everyone for a mile knows about you, have a guess which direction you're in, and are now looking for you. Your next shot is going to raise your insurance premiums quite a bit...because it will nail your position for return fire.
Less is sometimes more. Just depends on the situation.

q: why is there a forklift in the parking lot at the range?
a: Oh, DCF is zeroing in his .308 today...

 

[DCFusor]

Close to reality Jay.:clap: But actually my two heaviest guns are a Grizzly in .50 bmg (5+ foot barrel), and my unlimited class benchrest homebrew which shoots 6 ppc out of a bull barrel - which is 1.5" in diameter at the muzzle end - there are cars with less steel in the engine block. Now that one is sort of a two man carry if you have to go more than 20 feet with it. Not exactly a "tactical assault" gun. Real good though if you want to put one inside .05" at 100 yds, though - it's good enough to replace a cheap drill press at that range. I shoot the 6ppc free recoil and it only moves back on the bags about half an inch on a shot. It's a set trigger with a 10 gram release...all you have to do is "think blam" and it's off.

No one in their right mind shoots that .50 off the shoulder. It's not a Barret-class muzzle brake and I've seen it lift 300 lb guys off their feet shooting it off a bipod from a table. It's mostly for show (it's the sign for my gunsmith shop), as is my carbon-15 pistol (pelosi's worst nightmare with a 30 rd clip) that is just not possible to make accurate. It's my version of an SKS, but it's reliable. It's my second noisiest gun, as you might expect from shooting .223 out of an effectively 3.5" long barrel - it's all noise and fire, not much else, but if you miss you at least set their hair on fire with the blast.

Edit:
You can usually, if not always, shoot NATO out of a ".308", the specs are the same. However, all these specs have a tolerance band. In general, the military looks for feed reliability more than anything, so their ammo will in general fit loose, even though the paper tolerance band for NATO is wider. There have been a few cases of nato 5.62 not fitting in a commercial .223 gun that had a tight chamber. Assuming DoChen is getting a bolt action - the easy rule is if it's hard to shove in there, don't - it will be harder to get back out. My Ruger (not necessarily recommended) .308 has never had an issue with nato ammo, particularly that with the + (sniper) headstamp, which tends to be on the large side for tight fit, but honestly, I don't shoot milsurp out of a good barrel, especially not that one I had to spend almost 20 hours lapping because they made it so shitty (toolmarks everywhere, including a grinchy trigger I had to lap too). When I bought that gun, a beer can at 100 yds was safe from you with a box of ammo. Now a fly isn't safe on a single shot at the same range - there IS something to being a gunsmith, the profession has a reason to exist.

They must have made it just when they heard Bill was about to die - a Monday morning hungover build, I'm sure most Ruger stuff is better and I got unlucky with that one.

In general you should note that there is a reason for a lot of milsurp being surplus, and it often includes a batch that didn't pass inspection for the military - that's the real problem - they dumped it because it DOES NOT meet spec - it's more that than a spec problem.

 

[DCFusor]

I should further mention that most of the semi's that come to me for unreliable feeding have issues with the mag feed lips. Most but not all the time, that's the issue if things are otherwise OK (not crap reject ammo or stupid user who doesn't know how to clean).

And yes, gun choice has a lot to do with predicted usage. For close quarters I'll stick with my CZ-97b in .45 and my carbon 15 if there's not a shotgun in reach. The carbon is the new SKS in a lot of ways, but lighter, faster to deploy and so on.
Honestly though, if you think you need 30+ rounds in close quarters, I'd be buying some real good body armor and a "chicken plate" because at those odds, you're going to lose otherwise - unless you are the god of tactics and guns and the opponents are complete idiots - and maybe even then, they might get lucky.

This whole SKS vs AK nomenclature thing gives me heartburn. All, 100% of actual AK's are full auto, end of story - the parts won't even fit. It got confused by morons wanting to brag their gun was the famous AK when it's really a different design that looks the same on the outside so you can't make an SKS full auto. Urban myth stuff.
Not a big deal otherwise - a semi is much more effective in hits vs ammo usage - it's an old saw in the marines - go to semi - still have a problem? Usually the answer is no. Full auto is just for spray fire to keep their heads down whilst you run away.

 

[Jay]

Close to reality Jay.:clap: But actually my two heaviest guns are a Grizzly in .50 bmg (5+ foot barrel), and my unlimited class benchrest homebrew which shoots 6 ppc out of a bull barrel - which is 1.5" in diameter at the muzzle end - there are cars with less steel in the engine block. Now that one is sort of a two man carry if you have to go more than 20 feet with it. Not exactly a "tactical assault" gun. Real good though if you want to put one inside .05" at 100 yds, though - it's good enough to replace a cheap drill press at that range. I shoot the 6ppc free recoil and it only moves back on the bags about half an inch on a shot. It's a set trigger with a 10 gram release...all you have to do is "think blam" and it's off.

No one in their right mind shoots that .50 off the shoulder. It's not a Barret-class muzzle brake and I've seen it lift 300 lb guys off their feet shooting it off a bipod from a table. It's mostly for show (it's the sign for my gunsmith shop), as is my carbon-15 pistol (pelosi's worst nightmare with a 30 rd clip) that is just not possible to make accurate. It's my version of an SKS, but it's reliable. It's my second noisiest gun, as you might expect from shooting .223 out of an effectively 3.5" long barrel - it's all noise and fire, not much else, but if you miss you at least set their hair on fire with the blast.

Edit:
You can usually, if not always, shoot NATO out of a ".308", the specs are the same. However, all these specs have a tolerance band. In general, the military looks for feed reliability more than anything, so their ammo will in general fit loose, even though the paper tolerance band for NATO is wider. There have been a few cases of nato 5.62 not fitting in a commercial .223 gun that had a tight chamber. Assuming DoChen is getting a bolt action - the easy rule is if it's hard to shove in there, don't - it will be harder to get back out. My Ruger (not necessarily recommended) .308 has never had an issue with nato ammo, particularly that with the + (sniper) headstamp, which tends to be on the large side for tight fit, but honestly, I don't shoot milsurp out of a good barrel, especially not that one I had to spend almost 20 hours lapping because they made it so shitty (toolmarks everywhere, including a grinchy trigger I had to lap too). When I bought that gun, a beer can at 100 yds was safe from you with a box of ammo. Now a fly isn't safe on a single shot at the same range - there IS something to being a gunsmith, the profession has a reason to exist.

They must have made it just when they heard Bill was about to die - a Monday morning hungover build, I'm sure most Ruger stuff is better and I got unlucky with that one.

In general you should note that there is a reason for a lot of milsurp being surplus, and it often includes a batch that didn't pass inspection for the military - that's the real problem - they dumped it because it DOES NOT meet spec - it's more that than a spec problem.

My .308s a Ruger M77 Mark2, I'm happy with it, but I'm not demanding much.
glad to hear that about NATO stuff, good to know in a pinch. Coworkers cousin had a .50, he said he sold it "because you could get HURT with that gun". And he's a BIG guy.

 

[Jay]

I should further mention that most of the semi's that come to me for unreliable feeding have issues with the mag feed lips. Most but not all the time, that's the issue if things are otherwise OK (not crap reject ammo or stupid user who doesn't know how to clean).

And yes, gun choice has a lot to do with predicted usage. For close quarters I'll stick with my CZ-97b in .45 and my carbon 15 if there's not a shotgun in reach. The carbon is the new SKS in a lot of ways, but lighter, faster to deploy and so on.
Honestly though, if you think you need 30+ rounds in close quarters, I'd be buying some real good body armor and a "chicken plate" because at those odds, you're going to lose otherwise - unless you are the god of tactics and guns and the opponents are complete idiots - and maybe even then, they might get lucky.

This whole SKS vs AK nomenclature thing gives me heartburn. All, 100% of actual AK's are full auto, end of story - the parts won't even fit. It got confused by morons wanting to brag their gun was the famous AK when it's really a different design that looks the same on the outside so you can't make an SKS full auto. Urban myth stuff.
Not a big deal otherwise - a semi is much more effective in hits vs ammo usage - it's an old saw in the marines - go to semi - still have a problem? Usually the answer is no. Full auto is just for spray fire to keep their heads down whilst you run away.

there won't be any firefights at my house. Although all the kids like to shoot, the wife can shoot but doesn't like it, and we practice "gun safety" we are probably tactically one step up from "un-armed".

 

[DoChenRollingBearing]

...

Thanks again Jay, Bug and DCFusor! I will be taking my time looking into the .308 purchase.

Picked up another 100 rds. of 7.62 * 39 just today (same Fiocchi Hungary) while I was in the neighborhood.

Oh, and a bit more gold too...

 

[dontdeBasemebro]

Since I last posted to this thread I had not gone to the store, trying to lay low and let all this nonsense blow over (enough already...).

There was something I wanted to pick up from the electronics store last weekend, which happens to be next to the bullet store.


The shelves were full, hurray! Last time I went it looked like the Soviet grocery store, but no longer. However, the variety of what filled the shelves is still not quite normal. NATO, Soviet, and the common handgun calibers were still not to be found.

Shot shells were plentiful and probably took up a good 65% of the shelves, which is higher than at pre-crazy. Being someone who enjoys shotgun and would grab one first while at home, I was happy. Picked up plenty of skeet loads in 12 and 20. They had tons of slugs in 12, 20, .410, buckshot in 12, and even a few boxes of 16 and 28. I still haven't found any 20ga 00 though, no big deal since when 00 is required I'd grab the 12ga first anyways.

For rifles the selection was also pretty good. 30-06, 7mm Mauser, .243, .270, .204 Ruger, and some .222 (got my hopes up for a second with that!) where all easy to be had.

Handguns it where it got interesting...

They had 4 boxes of Makarov (emphasis on had :wave, .45 GAP, and plenty of .41 mag and .44 mag. They even had some 7.62 Nagant.

I went back again today and the sitaution was basically the same, and they even still had 4 boxes of Mak. There were 3 boxes of .357 Sig for about $28, Winchester white box but not the bargain basement white box; I think that was a normal price.

They have .327 Fed mag and .32 S&W all day long. So much so that, while I have been planning to get a GP100 .357 as soon as I can find one, I'm actually thinking about a .327, 7-rounds. For carry pistol I was also thinking of getting a .40 or .357sig with conversion barrels for the other (and maybe 9mm).

The gun cases had what seemed like a normal supply as well, Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs etc. I didn't check for "assault" rifles though.

While things haven't returned to normal, it is certainly getting better.

 

[ancona]

Ammo is still weird here in Central Florida. There is a strange mix of available stuff, but still a drought on .223/5.56, 7.62 x 39, 9mm, .40, ,45 and other popular rounds are nowhere to be seen, or only available in super premium varieties. We're laying low as well, hoping this calms down soon. Hopefully, with so much demand pulled forward, when the dust settles there will be much more competition and lower prices.

 

[Jay]

cases and cases of NATO and russian stuff here, nothing else. Don't know why. Gun show next weekend, so guess I'll go take a look (at the same 30-30 I've been looking at for two years). Might find some ammo there, but we've quit shooting.

 

[rblong2us]

Location, Location, Location


In the news this week, a Southern California man was put under 72-hour psychiatric observation when it was found he owned 100 guns and had (by rough estimate) one million rounds of ammunition stored in his home.
The house also has a secret escape tunnel.

The television reporter said: "Wow! He has about a million machine gun bullets!" and the headline referred to it as a "massive weapons cache."

By California standards someone owning even 100,000 rounds would be called "mentally unstable."
If he lived elsewhere, such as Arizona , he'd be called "an avid gun collector. "
In Oklahoma , he'd be called "a novice gun collector."
In Utah , he'd be called "moderately well prepared", but they'd probably reserve judgment until they made sure that he had a corresponding quantity of stored food.
In Montana , he'd be called "the neighborhood 'Go-To' guy."
In Idaho , he'd be called "a likely gubernatorial candidate."
In Wyoming , he'd be called "an eligible bachelor".
and... In Texas , he'd be called "a Hunting Buddy."

 

[Jay]

cases and cases of NATO and russian stuff here, nothing else. Don't know why. Gun show next weekend, so guess I'll go take a look (at the same 30-30 I've been looking at for two years). Might find some ammo there, but we've quit shooting.

never did go to the gun show. My friend has five cases of 5,000 each .22lr. So we were looking at Gunbot.com and a case goes for 1449. He's like "maybe I should sell it..."

 

[Jay]

went to Wallyworld (for something else). checked out the ammo, NOTHING on the shelf except many, many boxes and brands of 30-06, for 19.95. I have lots of that cal. Then went to local hardware store (for something else). Every cal in stock, at pre-freakout prices, mostly. Shelves of .223, federal at 23.99 a box. No .22 though. Got my sandpaper and went home.