The Lunatic Fringe - Market and Trade Chat

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ZSL killing it this morning. See if 24 holds in silver during this correction. If not then maybe 22.25 and if that doesn't hold then 19's.
 
This hit job was clearly coming due to the hit on small Silver miners like FSM and EXK yesterday. Gold bounced really well. The game is still alive but they appear very strained.
 
Voodoo said:
This hit job was clearly coming due to the hit on small Silver miners like FSM and EXK yesterday. Gold bounced really well. The game is still alive but they appear very strained.
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Yea I got the email from EXK yesterday morning so I knew that was headed south. I was wanting more of it though so hopefully will go to 3.
 
Voodoo said:
The important part here is that A.) Cede & Co OWNS nearly everything and B) they have been playing fast and loose with the shares. There were only like 420 million shares in total, yet they claimed ownership of over 750 million shares..
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More to this end. Cede & Co and the DTCC are pretty much the same thing just different file folders.

 
Complaining about market manipulation regarding Gold and Silver got old 20 years ago. When the Resident of the once greatest nation on earth lies and steals out in the open what do you think is gonna happen regarding precious metals manipulation? Not much is my guess. Get over it.
 
Lancers32 said:
Complaining about market manipulation regarding Gold and Silver got old 20 years ago. When the Resident of the once greatest nation on earth lies and steals out in the open what do you think is gonna happen regarding precious metals manipulation? Not much is my guess. Get over it.
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Who here is complaining about it? I think it's fantastic and is the reason we have a generational opportunity.
 
People love to blame manipulation by the bankers but I don't think it's as bad as people think.
Lot of companies have to hedge positions. Companies like Apple and Tsla all need large amounts of silver on an annual basis. They buy a large chunk of the metal and then hedge that position with shorts to make sure they don't lose money if the market goes down. Large retailers place an order for a million ounces of silver. Thats 25 million dollars. Do they just hold it and pray the market doesn't tank? Nope, they have to hedge a large position like that or raise premiums when the market tanks. Right now the market is headed lower and have gotten a few emails with lower premiums so they can move that stuff out of their inventory. IMO, that's not possible without hedging and taking a short position.
I think the bankers get the blame because many of those orders are placed through the larger bankers.
 
Good conversation but no clear winner. I do understand where both are coming from. On the one hand Woo is correct, the dollar is here to stay. On the other hand Rafi is correct, the system is completely forked.
When economists and bankers have to create so much verbiage to explain what it is they are doing, it smells like BS to me. Unless you are one of them you really cant understand a lot of what they say.

To me money should be simple. Nothing more than a medium of exchange for goods and services. Yes you can make the currency paper and use that to facilitate exchange but there should always be some sort of backing to that paper so you can exchange that paper for something of worth in order to store your wealth. Gold is a perfect medium for that.

I think where Woo gets it wrong is when he says there isn't enough gold in the world to back a currency. Congress shall have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof. Pretty simple. They could very easily give gold a value of 150,000 an ounce if they so choose. Make the American eagle and buffalo similar to the krugerrand without any value printed on them.

I also disagree with Woo in that our standard of living is better than 100 years ago and this is where Rafi gets it right in that the entire system is corrupt. Before the 1940's more people didn't pay an income tax. Income was and is still defined by the Supreme Court as a profit or gain separate from capital. Most people didn't have income. Through WW2 and a series of tricks, people started paying the war tax and SS tax and were conned into believing that they now were earning income.

Also back then 5 years was the average term for a home loan. Now it's 30 years and about to go to 40. Thats just a slight of hand trick to keep the system from imploding. Lower the payments over a longer term. Aswas pointed ou by Geitner on meet the press one Sunday morning in 2008, if we didn't give the banks 700 billion then we go back to a cash system and everything basically is 10% of the value that was actually stated at the time. So a 200k house goes to 20k. Thats what happens on a cash basis. (10% is roughly the reserve requirements of banks so that's where that number comes from I believe). Anyway, what we have now is a nation and a world full of debt slaves. The gov takes 20-30% of everything you make and the bankers take a huge cut as well. What your left with is the illusion of wealth when some appraiser comes in and says your house is worth more than you paid for it. If the money supply shrinks or we go into some crisis where we have deflation, then everyone loses which is why I say your home is where you live, not an investment.
 
Cigarlover said:
On the one hand Woo is correct, the dollar is here to stay.
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Yeah, nope. Unless you are just talking about a general name for money of a dollar. But the FRN is dying and pretty soon.

His worst argument was Trying to splain that consumer goods are cheaper now than the 1980's, lol. Let's see, many new Trucks today are 80 grand versus maybe $18,000 in 1980.
 
Goldhedge said:
the Banker is casting spells... gobbledygook
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They honestly believe this crud. At least guys like him. They are the stupid-smart people. But they are not smart enough to ever crawl out of their box. Never do they consider some of the die-hard assumptions of their field. They get lost in math (physics) or language (doctors) or a little of both like economists.
 
Voodoo said:
Yeah, nope. Unless you are just talking about a general name for money of a dollar. But the FRN is dying and pretty soon.

His worst argument was Trying to splain that consumer goods are cheaper now than the 1980's, lol. Let's see, many new Trucks today are 80 grand versus maybe $18,000 in 1980.
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Marty thinks differently. There is no replacement for the dollar. Not right now anyway. Maybe in the 2030's. So, yes I agree the dollar will die. Soon? Depends on your definition of soon. In the next 10 years, probably.
I bought a new f 150 in 1987 for 12k. Not sure what they go for today but his argument was that when you factor in all the new tech things are actually cheaper. In 1990 a computer was about 400 bucks. Today I can go to war mart and get one for 3-400 bucks but with way more computing power.

There has been lots of smart people over the years that have been declaring the dollar is dead. In 1990 it was the end of the world once we crossed the 1 trillion dollar mark in the national debt. He we are 30 trillion plus later and still going strong. Of course it's all an illusion of wealth. Take away 32 trillion in debt and everything goes back to 1970's prices.

As I said, they both make a good argument. I'm not smart enough to figure out when this all ends. I live on a cash basis. Everything is paid for and 0 debt. If we get inflation I am ok. If everything crashes I still have a roof over my head. Get out of the system and you won't care about the system.
 
Cigarlover said:
Marty thinks differently. There is no replacement for the dollar. Not right now anyway. Maybe in the 2030's. So, yes I agree the dollar will die. Soon? Depends on your definition of soon. In the next 10 years, probably.
I bought a new f 150 in 1987 for 12k. Not sure what they go for today but his argument was that when you factor in all the new tech things are actually cheaper. In 1990 a computer was about 400 bucks. Today I can go to war mart and get one for 3-400 bucks but with way more computing power.

There has been lots of smart people over the years that have been declaring the dollar is dead. In 1990 it was the end of the world once we crossed the 1 trillion dollar mark in the national debt. He we are 30 trillion plus later and still going strong. Of course it's all an illusion of wealth. Take away 32 trillion in debt and everything goes back to 1970's prices.

As I said, they both make a good argument. I'm not smart enough to figure out when this all ends. I live on a cash basis. Everything is paid for and 0 debt. If we get inflation I am ok. If everything crashes I still have a roof over my head. Get out of the system and you won't care about the system.
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Yeah, I read it and I do think the USD soars here near term. Who says there HAS to be a viable alternative? This is a collapse. A collapse of everyone who has climbed on board the Western gravy train and did not realize they need a parachute.

A computer is a computer. Sure, they are much more powerful today but I use them in virtually an identical way. It is not that much more productive simply because it chews threw 1 and 0's faster. That is even more the case with say a Truck. It gets you from point A to point B just the same. Perhaps it lasts a few years longer but unlikely.
 
Voodoo said:
Yeah, I read it and I do think the USD soars here near term. Who says there HAS to be a viable alternative? This is a collapse. A collapse of everyone who has climbed on board the Western gravy train and did not realize they need a parachute.

A computer is a computer. Sure, they are much more powerful today but I use them in virtually an identical way. It is not that much more productive simply because it chews threw 1 and 0's faster. That is even more the case with say a Truck. It gets you from point A to point B just the same. Perhaps it lasts a few years longer but unlikely.
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I do remember bak to the early 90's when I was waiting for my dialup to get me online. Then going to websites and waiting for them to load. Today the web is just about instantaneous for any site. I dont do anything different than I did back then either but it's a hell of a lot faster.
There were also huge productivity gains from the 80's to the 90's. We went from filing cabinets full of files to a computer that could access that same info in a fraction of the time.

What does a collapse look like? No more money at all? Back to a barter system? (I'm actually ok with that but the gov would never allow that. No way to control us if we are watering amongst ourselves and no way to fund them if there is no money. Not any will barter for Gov services. )
 
The old trade till the lights go out. Some guys that might be smarter than me say June bottom in the pm complex. They have been wrong before. Then again who hasn't right?
 
Gold nearly touching its 50-DMA, and silver hitting the downtrend it broke out of. I see alot of gold analysts thinking we go lower, yet we are at a price spot to reverse higher.
My guess is we get a bounce followed by sideways for the next month.
 
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